adding second oil cooler

[supraguru05]

my current setup is as follows.

earls billet oil filter adapter on the block
perma cool spin on filter mount
mocal oil thermostat
b&m 11X8 oil cooler
all -10 lines

the cooler filter and themostat are all locaed on the passenger side to keep line length down. this offseason im adding a 11X11 b&m cooler on the passenger side in a atempt to keep myoil temps down. my concern is that all this line will be to much restriction for the stock pump to handle and that ill start to lose oil flow. i currently run 0w-30 german castrol. oil temps hit 250 at putnam when it was 70 degrees outside. motor is a rebuilt 7mge with all the turbo stuff on it.

just wondering your opinon on how the stock pump will handle this

[jdub]

1st of all - Where are you reading oil temps at...i.e. the feed line to the cooler, the return line from the cooler, or at a block location?

What kind of oil temp gauge?

What is your pressure at idle and at 3000 RPM?

Is the oil pump relief valve shimmed for more pressure?

What is "putnam"?

[supraguru05]

1st of all - Where are you reading oil temps at...i.e. the feed line to the cooler, the return line from the cooler, or at a block location?

What kind of oil temp gauge?

What is your pressure at idle and at 3000 RPM?

Is the oil pump relief valve shimmed for more pressure?

What is "putnam"?

crappy megan racing oil temp gauge

measured at the filter soon to be moved to the oil pan

yes its shimmed

putnam is a road course this is a nasa/autocross car. the oil temps have been a problem for two years now even on stock boost levels. they get above 250 towards the end of a 20 minute session. twins turbo runs two giant oil coolers on both their FD and mk4 supra and im pretty sure i need two at this point. especially if i try to run at 10-11 psi.

[IJ.]

250 is way too high :(

Normally I'd have Oil Temp follow coolant temp +10>15f at most if possible for a circuit engine.

[jdub]

Ok..."measured at the filter" doesn't tell me squat...I have no idea how your filter/cooler circuit is routed.
One more time, is that pre-cooler or post cooler temps.

Temps at the pan are going to be higher...that is a pre-cooler temp...kinda the whole point here.

And, you didn't tell me your pressures like I asked either.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you can't expect me to help you unless you answer what I ask.

[supraguru05]

Ok..."measured at the filter" doesn't tell me squat...I have no idea how your filter/cooler circuit is routed.
One more time, is that pre-cooler or post cooler temps.

Temps at the pan are going to be higher...that is a pre-cooler temp...kinda the whole point here.

And, you didn't tell me your pressures like I asked either.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you can't expect me to help you unless you answer what I ask.

k easy jdub i accidently skipped the rpm question. the psi at 3000 rpms depends on the oil temp

cold its really high 60ish (never run the car with cold oil)

warm its 40ish and generally my pressures are 40-45 hot at the track at WOT above 4000 rpms. never had a pressure problem. i do have a 20psi warning light installed that i turn on once i enter the track.

my setup is as follows

block to filter
filter to thermostat then splits to cooler or back to the block depending on temps

so its taken at the filter housing so it should be close to oil pan temps. and is pre cooler. but if im rejecting heat out of the bearings at 250 im still rather uncomfortable at that and would prefer in the 190 to 200 range.

oil is clear on the way to the track. then after 8 20 minute sessions its super black im also sending one of these high oxidated oil samples to black stone for analysis to see how bad i cooked it. should have results in a couple weeks.


my main concern is whether the stock pump can flow for this large of a circuit. ive seen people run coolers on the drivers side so i assume im ok i just wanted your opinion on the issue. also i have a push button start so i can prime the motor before i actually let it start.


also water temps are solid at 190 taken at the thermostat houseing. i also have wings welded on the pan which ups the pan capacity to around 6 quarts plus whatever is in the filter and cooler. if there is any other information you would like i can provide it. i can get pictures tonight as well

[jdub]

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a Dick.
I answer dozens of oil questions a week via PM...it's just get old trying to drag info out of folks in an effort to help.

250 degs is still too high post cooler...I'd be interested in seeing the Blackstone results.

With -10 lines you should be fine with a dual cooler set-up. I would create a parallel circuit from the thermostat to the coolers...i.e line from the T-stat to a T-fitting feeding the inlet to both. Same for the cooler return back to the T-stat. This way you split the thermal load and don't over cool the oil.

In your case, it might be a good idea to monitor oil temps both pre and post cooler. You could use 2 gauges or get another sender (the same as you have) and set-up a way to switch senders from the cockpit.

What filter are you running?
You might want to consider one of these:
http://www.cmfilters.com/spin-on.cfm#specs

The CM filter is the highest flowing I know of...does a great job of filtering too. They do have an anti-drain back valve, but do not have a internal filter bypass (they flow that good).

[supraguru05]

i know your busy thanks for answering it just shows how awesome you are lol.

yea my next thing i was going to say was i was probably going to switch to a inline filter. but those spin ons should work just fine. so your recommending taking the output of the t stat and running it into a tee and running the coolers in parallel. hmm i was going to run them in seris. well ill talk to some local shops and probably run them in parallel. would you recommend the spin on versus switching to a inline cm filter. i guess the spin on is a little easier to change. im not oppossed to switching to a inline if you think its a advantage. ill be sure to post the oil analysis results when i get them.

thanks alot jdub your advice will not be in vein

[jdub]

You're welcome ;)

A parallel circuit will split the flow and keep the line length (oil path) down.

That CM filter spin-on is one of the best...use the 6 1/4" tall one if you can comfortably fit it...it flows 45 GPM. It will be easier to change vs the in-line one. The in-line offers no real advantage. Downside of the CM filters is the price.

[IJ.]

Back when I had my TTv8 Z Car I ran a dedicated cooling system just for the engine with a T Stat switch and an Electric Pump and a couple of HUGE coolers.

I'll be interested to see what the addition of a second cooler on your car achives.

[Rennat]

just my thoughts on this... why not get a bigger cooler?

your 11x8 seems kinda small when you compare it to the sizes available...

would this do a better job than 2 coolers?
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D45320&N=700+4294888847+4294906639+115&autoview=sku

or this one?
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRM%2D315&N=700+400006+307187+115&autoview=sku

[jdub]

The problem with a big cooler is where to mount it...not impossible, just very difficult. Especially if you already have an existing IC set up that takes up a lot of frontal area.

One other option is to add a fan to the cooler...like this one:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BMM%2D70297&N=700+115&autoview=sku

This is a good choice where air flow is limited...like where Guru is looking to mount it forward of the wheel well.

Not a big fan of the tube/fin coolers...the plate type (like the B&M) is more efficient and less prone to damage.

[supraguru05]

as jdub mentioned rennat the tube and fins do not compare to the cooling capability of the bar and plate coolers. a 8X11 bar and plate is rather large. and a 11X11 will fill the whole front area under the headlight which is where i am mounting them. ill put some pictures up when the mounting is done next week.

also as jdub said the bar and plates are really strong. when i first mounted it two years ago i accidently drug the bottom of it ona bump in the road the cooler took the hit fine. also the car fell of the ramps on the trailor (long story) and the cooler smacked the trailer and held the car up. thanks to my 1/8in steel plate brackets the cooler bent but did not break

[jdub]

Guru - Take a look at the B&M cool/fan combo...the core is 12x8x1.5...a bit smaller, but the fan will greatly improve air flow (especially where you are mounting it). The fan switches on at 175 degs...perfect match for the Mocal T-stat.

[supraguru05]

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/oilsample1.jpg


oil sample. i have a crappy pep boys cone filter on it so im getting a k&n for it for next season lol.

larger oil cooler came in will mount it this weekend and ill post pictures

[jdub]

It does look good (except for the silicon of course). Your wear metals look good too...the oil is doing it's job. And no anti-freeze is always a good thing ;)

Don't get a K&N filter...they are crap. If you are going to use a cone type, get an AEM Dryflow filter...much better choice.

The other thing I noticed is the 100 deg C viscosity. GC is pretty thick at that temp for a 30W...in the 12.5 cst range. It appears the oil has sheared down (to 10.6 cst) quite a bit. The high temps would explain this.

[supraguru05]

just ordered a AEM filter from summit lol.


http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0470_0001.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0539.jpg

as you can see from the first picture that is the current configuration. very compact. the new design is going to relocate the filter to probably where the thermostat is and move the thermostat more centralized in the car so there is room for the t fittings. from the second picture you can see the size comparison between the old cooler and the new 2nd cooler. the new cooler has 50% more cooling capacity according to b&m.

ill keep updating this thread to show people how i fit and plumbed this system thanks for the help jdub

also you can see why i only run bar and plate coolers. it took quite a hit when the car fell of the ramps on the trailer and hasnt leaked yet. im going to try to straighten it but im not getting my hopes up

[jdub]

You're welcome ;)

That cooler has a nice bow in it!

[supraguru05]

happy thanksgiving heres my update
the coolers are mounted and the filter mount is remounted. word to the wise when people say the cast permacool filter mounts crack they were kidding when i switched the fittings out i cracked my original one so i had to order another. also i ordered the mocal adapter for the block that sends the outlets out the bottom instead of out the side. this makes life alot easier


http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0586.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0587.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0588.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0589.jpg

everything is mounted except the thermostat. i ran out of fittings so im waiting on a summit order to arrive to plumb in the next T fitting for the bottom of the coolers and the thermostat.

[supraguru05]

plumbing is done it was a PITA. pictures will be posted tonight. hopefully having them in parallel works and i dont have to redo it. it did not turn out as great as i had hoped but i just need to get it running again

[Rennat]

im still waiting on those pics as i really wanna see how you ended up doing this.

[supraguru05]

well here they are. now the way it goes is i have a canton racing adapter on my block. the outlet of this line goes to the filter mount where i have a low oil pressure warning light, the output of the filter housing goes into the input in my mocal thermostat. the thermostat has a outlet which goes to a tee fitting which goes to the top of each of the coolers. the bottom (outlet) of the coolers go into a tee fitting and this line then goes back to the thermostat. the final cooler oil leaves the thermostat and goes back into the adapter on the block.

i used mainly earls swivel seal fittings which i now hate. i also have on the car some summit fittings and some no names that i bought for a race shop. these fittings are not the cutter style that the earls swivel seal are and i like them alot better, no more swivel seal for me. when it was all said and done the car took ten quarts to fill. and now for the pictures.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0641.jpg

shows the top tee fitting. note i no longer have a latch or anything on the hood since it was switched to hood pins last year.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0642.jpg

better view of the top tee fitting. the thermostat is to the left and the black line emerging from the bottom is the outlet of the bottom tee fitting.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0643.jpg

shows the thermostat

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0644.jpg

passenger side cooler outlets.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0645.jpg

bottom tee fitting which blocks some of the radiator unfortunately.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0646.jpg

filter houseing. the low oil pressure sender is on the other side and is hidden. this is mounted high for a future 6.5 inch tall canton filter.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0647.jpg

passenger cooler

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0648.jpg

drivers cooler.


note this install is not 100% complete. most of the lines are clamped but their final positions are not finalized. overall im really dissapointed in myself for the way it turned out but at least the car runs again.

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/100_0585.jpg

the reason toyota had inner fender liners. i thought i somehow broke my passenger side fender molding because after the last race it stuck out. took it off to find all these marbles in it.


i am about a day away from finishing a power steering cooler install.

jdub currently i use some kind of clear power steering fluid i think its valvoline synthetic power steering fluid. would you recommend switching to something else and if so how can i guarantee the system is completely flushed before switching. thanks

[jdub]

Doesn't look too bad a job to me ;)

You want to use ATF (Dex III) in the PS system...Mobil 1 Synthetic is the best for this. Drain the reservoir and disconnect the return line. Extend it to a plastic pan or gallon container...start the car, turn the steering wheel back & forth, and add AFT to the reservoir until it it runs bright red into the pan. Hook everything back up and fill....run again, turning the steering wheel again to get the air out. Don't over fill and check again in a couple days.

Get a magafine in-line filter and install on the return line to the reservoir while you're at it. Magnafine is running a special on them too...regular price is $20 ea:

http://www.emergingent.com/magnefine/order_page.htm

[supraguru05]

update:

power steering filter ordered

also the top most line in the system had a slight leak so today when i went to remake the line and i took it off all the oil had drained back into the pan. i plan to put a check valve in the return line on the adapter on the block. im going to check the local parker store to see what price they have on check valves if they are to expensive im going to order this.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOR-23875&N=700+-43887+115&autoview=sku

[Supra-Man18]

Quick question... I recently installed my oil cooler and filter relocation and 2 of the lines have an "s" shape curve in them.. Is this harmful to oil flow? can this cause stress on the oil pump ? No mean to thread jack congrats on dual cooler setup..

[jdub]

Slightly...and, No.

[Supra-Man18]

Kool.. Im still at around 80 psi and it climbs a little WOT so i believe it should be ok... thank you much master of the oil systems =)

[supraguru05]

if your using AN line and hose ends if you bend the hose at to much of an angle by the hose end it is possible for the hose to start leaking as it starts to push out. with good fittings and hose this generally doesnt happen but pictures would be work a thousand words. i have seen a AN line push out over time on a formula car at school because the students didnt build the line properly and it was under to much stress but i doubt this would be a problem for you. it really has to be bent hard.

[supraguru05]

Ok Jdub i desperatly need your help.

I run the pure one filters which have anti drain back valves built in, however i did not have a check valve in the return to the block and i belive the coolers are siphoning back into the pan. i just pulled the motor out and to my suprise theres a ton of oil in the pan, i mean like almost touching the crank level of oil. so im putting a check valve in. heres a diagram of what my system looks like and my guess of where to put a check valve. i have no budget left for a accusump at this point but this check valve should fix the problem. here is the check valve i am looking at.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOR-23875&N=700+-126442+115&autoview=sku

and here is the diagram
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq207/supraguru05/coolerdiagram.jpg




my only concern is since the check valve open direction is the same direction im trying to prevent the flow from going once the motor is off means this has to be like a 1psi check valve or else it could close while the motor is at idle if the oil pressure drops that much. my car doesnt idle that low but im just worried. the check valve only has to resist the head pressure of the oil above the return which cant be more than 1 psi

[jdub]

No worries on 1 psi ;)

This may still allow oil from the coolers to the block. On thing you may want to go is swap the top/bottom cooler T-fitting...make the top fitting the return to the block. That way all you will lose is part of the oil in the top return line. The coolers should remain full with gravity flow blocked by the filter.

I would still add the check valve in the location you picked.

BTW - How is this dual cooler set-up working keeping oil temps where they need to be?

[supraguru05]

No worries on 1 psi ;)

This may still allow oil from the coolers to the block. On thing you may want to go is swap the top/bottom cooler T-fitting...make the top fitting the return to the block. That way all you will lose is part of the oil in the top return line. The coolers should remain full with gravity flow blocked by the filter.

I would still add the check valve in the location you picked.

BTW - How is this dual cooler set-up working keeping oil temps where they need to be?

thanks for the quick response im going to call moroso to verify the pressure that the check valve opens at. the top most tee fitting on the car is the return from the coolers already.

the car hasnt been run yet its to cold here in kentucky so i really wont know until the first race in april how the coolers work.

do you know if the spin on CM filters have anti drain back valves built in.

[jdub]

That's odd...if the return is on the top fitting, it should not drain the coolers to the block.

Yes, the CM filter has an anti-drain back valve, but no bypass valve.

[supraguru05]

That's odd...if the return is on the top fitting, it should not drain the coolers to the block.

Yes, the CM filter has an anti-drain back valve, but no bypass valve.

well its the fact the there is a portion of the coolers/ line higher than the filter adapter on the block so it drains down, but you would think that it would have a hard time getting through the bearings to leak out. the car currently has a stp filter on it if that matters.

got a email back from moroso and this is what it says

The p/n 23875 will flow one way and then open the opposite way at 1 psi.

so this check valve is for use with a accusump which is not what i need. i think what im going to do is when the car comes back from the cage builder ill put the motor back in with no oil in it and fill from the top of the tee fitting and see if it drains back into the block. something else might be a problem here.

in the mean time im going to the local parker dealer to get a 1/2 npt 1psi check valve just in case.

[supraguru05]

just wanted to update this for anyone searching

the above moroso check valve works great, it has definitely fixed my oil drain back issues. it has a opening pressure of 1 psi and is much cheaper than a equivalent earls check valve. i recommend this check valve for anyone with a large oil cooler