Stroked NA

[Alan]

Here is one for you guys and I have been doing some research on this and I wanted to run it by you guys to see if it is possible to do. My goal is 350 hp at the wheels.

- 7M
- Bored .040 over
- Strocker kit/ Balanced
- Crank Knife Edged
- Stainless Valves
- Double Valve springs
- Crane Cams
- Adjustable Timming gears
- Stock turbo injectors
- Short FFIM w/ Q45 throttle body
- OBX Header
- Light Weight fly wheel

There is the list of items I was thinking of so let me know if there is somting I missed or that may not work.

[figgie]

350hp at the wheels.... i don't see standalone. I don't see higher revs. I don't see massively worked head.

Not happening at 6500 rpm redline with a 3.0L NA engine.

[Nick M]

Here is one for you guys and I have been doing some research on this and I wanted to run it by you guys to see if it is possible to do. My goal is 350 hp at the wheels.

- 7M
- Bored .040 over
- Strocker kit/ Balanced
- Crank Knife Edged
- Stainless Valves
- Double Valve springs
- Crane Cams
- Adjustable Timming gears
- Stock turbo injectors
- Short FFIM w/ Q45 throttle bodyBad idea
- OBX Header
- Light Weight fly wheel

There is the list of items I was thinking of so let me know if there is somting I missed or that may not work.


Figgie already started on it. Besides the stroker, which will help a ton, you need more compression, and cylinder head work. If you look at other naturally aspirated engines doing as you are hoping, like the M3, the 330 bhp is high up in engine speed. Variable cam timing makes it drivable. But you need the head to flow that well, and that kind of engine speed.

[Alan]

Oop's I forgot to add about the head
Port and polish the head and the valves will be 1mm over stock.

[TurboFreak]

What do you plan to rev to? What compression? What duration cams?

[Alan]

What do you plan to rev to? What compression? What duration cams?
Thats a good question because I would like to run midgrade gas. So I was thinking about running the factory red line and for the cams they are crane street cams. As for the compression ratio I do not know off hand still researching the idea, thats why I am here to help me figure out these things.

[IJ.]

Not a hope in hell getting 350 without some serious compression and rpm which means good fuel.

[Alan]

Not a hope in hell getting 350 without some serious compression and rpm which means good fuel.

Here is were I started with the whole idea from Import Performance Parts.net

What is our Stroker Kit?
It's 6.5mm more stroke that when added to the increased bore equals 665cc more cubes of usable power!
Our stroker kit increases torque as much as 30% and 45 Horse Power (much more can be achieved with other HP increasing accessories). This means more pulling and launching power. This can be used with factory FI or Turbos (adjustments in fuel supply may be needed).

After 4 months of Dyno Testing, our non-turbo DOHC motor produced 259 HP and 247lbs of torque. The Turbo produced 320HP and 315 lbs of Torque. Both figures were produced with only the Stroker Kit. As an option, much higher figures can be achieved with additional parts added to the engine.

So from what I getting here what I am trying to do does not sound like it is hard to do. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[7Mboost]

Maybe some nitrous? I would love see an NA 7M built for something like a crazy 300+ shot.

[Clip]

what's involved to install a stroker kit (what are the supporting mods)? i know its replacing the internals of the engine, but does the head need work after?

[Alan]

I don't want to kill my self buuuuuuuuuut it would be cool

[benchwarmer]

Maybe some nitrous? I would love see an NA 7M built for something like a crazy 300+ shot.

:naughty:

As for the OP, that is most likely crank horsepower not wheel horsepower. AJ runs more mods than you're proposing and doesn't make that kind of power. Hell I don't make that kind of power, granted I'm not running a stroker crank.

[Alan]

Maybe some nitrous? I would love see an NA 7M built for something like a crazy 300+ shot.


what's involved to install a stroker kit, and what are the supporting mods?

Here is the list
7MGE/7MGTE Stroker Kits Include:

IPP's Forged Crank
Stock Stroke (3.583", 91mm)
New Stroke (3.833", 97.5mm)
Custom Forged Pistons
(any comp & diam)
Forged Steel Pins
(see upgrade option below)
Piston Pin Locks
Plasma Moly Racing Rings
4340 H-Beam Rods
(see upgrade option below)
Toga Performance Main Bearings
Toga Performance Rod Bearings
Comes balanced

[IJ.]

To make xxxHp you need to burn XXfuel this is simple physics there's no magic.

To burn more fuel with a turbo car is easy, with an NA not so much.
( a BIG hit of N2o will work)

You either need more displacement (stroker in this case) more rpm (standalone ECU) more compression (hi octane fuel and timing) along with perfect ports, valves, combustion chamber work, cams, lightweight valvetrain and so on.

ALL of which will move the powerband upwards and while this is fine in a light car the Mk3 needs low to midrange to get it moving, only way around this is low diff gears.

In the end while you may end up with 350 at the wheels it'll be a pig and will be smoked by even the most mildly modded GTE.

Ask AJ88NA about the mods he's done and the power he has after all the expense and effort.

Not trying to take a dump on your idea just trying to be realistic.

[amichie]

An engine that undersquare (84mm bore by 97.5mm stroke) should be in a tractor.

[Alan]

Thats why I am here to find out if what I am looking at is atainable or is it way out there. Now with what I have shown you all what kind of numbers could I be looking at?

[benchwarmer]

IJ is there a way to beat the rev limiter without going standalone?

[wiseco7mgt]

An engine that undersquare (84mm bore by 97.5mm stroke) should be in a tractor.

My thoughts exactly, make a nice tow engine.

[IJ.]

Bench: Not really, a few have changed the crystal in the ECU but and this is a big BUT that changes ALL the calculations not just the RPM limit so NFI how well it works.

[benchwarmer]

Crystal? *clicks search* I'll be back.

[Alan]

Now lets look at it this way would the listed items make for a good NA-T?

[IJ.]

Yes ;)
(now you're getting it)

[Alan]

Yes ;)
(now you're getting it)
I figured as much now here is the big question, what is cheaper doing all of this work and make it a NA-T, or take th motor out and get a front clip from JDM and convert the car to a 1JZ? I know what the answer will be but I am trying to figure out how much money I am going to need and will I get it befor I retire from the Navy:icon_bigg.

[IJ.]

NOT a big 1j fan sorry ;)

Personally if I were in your shoes I'd seriously look at an NA/T 2j.

[Alan]

Everything seems to come right back to that thought. How hard would it be to do that conversion?

[IJ.]

Pretty much a bolt together and go deal if you select the correct parts!

As much as I :love: my 7M with the $$$ I have in it I could have done a 1krwhp 2J and had $$$ to spare.

[Alan]

Pretty much a bolt together and go deal if you select the correct parts!

As much as I :love: my 7M with the $$$ I have in it I could have done a 1krwhp 2J and had $$$ to spare.

Thanks alot that is what I needed to know, so it sounds like I need to find a wreaked mark 4 or dig around in the Supra Forums.

[IJ.]

Should be a bunch of alternatives for NA 2J's in junkyards.

[AJ'S 88NA]

If you take a look at my "profile", like that IJ? It's more than you have listed for the mods you are considering. I haven't dynoed yet with the Maft-Pro, I'd guess with my "butt dyno" about 235-240 RWHP. Higher compression means higher octane fuel, you wouldn't be able to run on mid-grade. I run 91+.

The only thing else I am considering in the future is maybe a better ported head than I have now and a larger TB. Possablity larger lift cams. Since the Maft-Pro SD conversion I've seen almost 7400 rpm, don't do that too often. Everything has held together pretty well, I have the IPP stroker kit. The kit would be useless if the motor is not put together right.

Still I would be really pleased to see 300 RWHP after all is done. You have to be realistic about what you might expect.

[Alan]

Not around here they are stripped before they even get off of the truck.

[IJ.]

<golf clap> for AJ ;)

[Nick M]

An engine that undersquare (84mm bore by 97.5mm stroke) should be in a tractor.

How about a top fuel dragster? Or something high winding like that B series that Honda boy loves?



As much as I :love: my 7M with the $$$ I have in it I could have done a 1krwhp 2J and had $$$ to spare.

You should have qualified that statement, O.W.

[IJ.]

Nick: How so?

[wiseco7mgt]

Whats o.w?:1zhelp:

[Alan]

If you take a look at my "profile", like that IJ? It's more than you have listed for the mods you are considering. I haven't dynoed yet with the Maft-Pro, I'd guess with my "butt dyno" about 235-240 RWHP. Higher compression means higher octane fuel, you wouldn't be able to run on mid-grade. I run 91+.

The only thing else I am considering in the future is maybe a better ported head than I have now and a larger TB. Possablity larger lift cams. Since the Maft-Pro SD conversion I've seen almost 7400 rpm, don't do that too often. Everything has held together pretty well, I have the IPP stroker kit. The kit would be useless if the motor is not put together right.

Still I would be really pleased to see 300 RWHP after all is done. You have to be realistic about what you might expect.

Well I see that there is alot of work and money to invest in a project like that so I have decided to look for a 2JZ and put that in my car but now here is a new question for you all do I use the factory Mark 4 ecu or do I use a stand alone?

[Nick M]

Nick: How so?

You didn't need to spend the money you did to get the power you did. Seems like you have done a lot of different things over the years, when it wasn't broke to begin with. Sort of trial and error for your own benifit, as well as the community.

He doesn't need a 9" rear. Or propane, or whatever you converted to using. He doesn't need a T04Z following a GT35R, a Tremec, then an A340E. That sort of thing.

Bullet proof is good, but many don't need it. They just need to prep it right the first time.


Whats o.w?:1zhelp:

http://http.cdnlayer.com/jwcinc01/1170501/Obi%20Wan.jpg

[wiseco7mgt]

Thanks nick im not so good at the abbreviation's.:cry:
I totally agree with the 2jzge na/t being the most efficent way to go, especially if your not familar with the 7m's little trouble spots or just would rather not pull the motor down and do a full rebuild.
Ive seen a few 2jzge motors now that were for sale for $800 which i believe is a bargain considering the fact you dont need to change pistons, rods or even cams if you are are looking for 400-500rwhp.
I realise you dont need to to change these things on the 7mgte either but the age of the motors now will almost certainly require pulling down before playing power games.
Id definately love to give a 2jzge na/t a go next time

[Nomad707]

Pretty much a bolt together and go deal if you select the correct parts!

As much as I :love: my 7M with the $$$ I have in it I could have done a 1krwhp 2J and had $$$ to spare.

But then you would be like everyone else.
your 7m is inspirational as well as insanely pampered/upgraded

i'd take your car ANY day of the week over a 1k hp 2j

[Nomad707]

Thanks nick im not so good at the abbreviation's.:cry:
I totally agree with the 2jzge na/t being the most efficent way to go, especially if your not familar with the 7m's little trouble spots or just would rather not pull the motor down and do a full rebuild.
Ive seen a few 2jzge motors now that were for sale for $800 which i believe is a bargain considering the fact you dont need to change pistons, rods or even cams if you are are looking for 400-500rwhp.
I realise you dont need to to change these things on the 7mgte either but the age of the motors now will almost certainly require pulling down before playing power games.
Id definately love to give a 2jzge na/t a go next time

doesnt matter what motor you put in, may it be a 7m,2j, or 1j. save yourself a whole lot of aches and pains and replace the headgasket // headbolts while its out! it wont hurt to replace turbo gaskets/exhuast gaskets, maybee even cam seals..

just fyi! hope the quest for the 2j goes smooth

[wiseco7mgt]

doesnt matter what motor you put in, may it be a 7m,2j, or 1j. save yourself a whole lot of aches and pains and replace the headgasket // headbolts while its out! it wont hurt to replace turbo gaskets/exhuast gaskets, maybee even cam seals..

just fyi! hope the quest for the 2j goes smooth

I wouldnt imagine anyone going na/t wouldnt change the headgasket considering the compression ratio is a pretty vital component to a turbo engine.
The 2jzge never had a turbo to start with so obviously youll need turbo gaskets .
:dunno:

[Nomad707]

umm... that isnt the point, the point is you dont know what the motor is going to be like, and its cheap / logical to do it now.. plus you'd need to change the compression ratio because turbo's dont like high compression.. (you dont NEED to, but it would be smart to do so)

[Nick M]

Actually, turbos love high compression. They respond much faster.

[Nomad707]

then why do all models of cars that have a turbo option, the turbo has less compression and NA has more??

its easy to raise compression so why didnt they?

[jdub]

High compression is good for low end, even on a turbo motor. The problem with increasing piston CR on a turbo motor is the effect it has on dynamic compression when the motor is in boost....it increases...a lot. That makes a turbo motor more prone to detonation at higher boost...not good. It's easier to use lower CR pistons to avoid that and increase top end power using boost.

[Nomad707]

thanks for clarifying jdub.. i wasn't quite sure, but i did know there was reasoning behind my claim.

[Nick M]

then why do all models of cars that have a turbo option, the turbo has less compression and NA has more??

its easy to raise compression so why didnt they?

It is cheaper to use low compression than a forged piston. A 12:1 engine with, just for the sake of argument, 8 lbs from a T04B, will out power the same engine with compression at 8.5:1, all through the range, without question.

You need better fuel, and more of it; i.e. a good tune.

[Nomad707]

oooh.. ok.. so when your running a turbo on high compression without the right tune it will combust prematurely?

[Nick M]

oooh.. ok.. so when your running a turbo on high compression without the right tune it will combust prematurely?

The combustion triangle in an automotive application is compression, air/fuel ratio, and ignition timing. But like the natural world, if you have enough heat, you will ignite without an ignition source. Provided the A/F ratio will allow it.

In the late 80's, a Honda race car, I couldn't tell you anymore if it was Formula One, or Indy League Racing, had 16:1 compression and 55 PSI.

[figgie]

Probably IRL.

They were running 45 PSI on top of the straight methanol.

F1 was using tolune cut with n-Heptane to reach the octane requirements.

edit: for clarification.

[IJ.]

^ That would be really good for your complexion :aigo:

[figgie]

^ That would be really good for your complexion :aigo:


well remember, that was before they figured that is was not so nice to your skin, hair, eyes, brains, lungs etc. ;)

They probably would have used straigh benzene but they knew about the nastys in that stuff from a while back!

[IJ.]

http://history.pifan.com/upload/movie2004/Film/04SP2_ToxicAvenger_1.jpg

[figgie]

hahahah

Toxic Avenger ownz!

[IJ.]

He worked as a refueller in the 80's ;)

[Nick M]

Talk about the perfect picture at the perfect time.

[Alan]

I asked this question earlier. Well I see that there is alot of work and money to invest in a project like that so I have decided to look for a 2JZ and put that in my car but now here is a new question for you all do I use the factory Mark 4 ecu or do I use a stand alone?

[IJ.]

Again personally I'd go standalone :)

[figgie]

Yes

MoTeC unless you want to try something different....

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82775

enjoy researching ;)

[wiseco7mgt]

figgie how would you feel about stockecu and map ecu 2?
Do they offer enough in the way of timing control?

[figgie]

On a stroked 7m motor. The Volumetric Efficeny of the engine changes way to much to rely on the stock ecu for anything! Stroked engine require full control of both the ignition and injection with control of WHEN injection happens (ie full sequential injection).