Need help!!! Walbro Pump and my shitty wiring! 2jzgte swap relies on this!!!!!

[SupraMario]

Ok, So As stated my crap wiring skills have put me in a rut. So I did the 12v relay and the 12v resistor mod. Well the problem is it is only getting power when I take and put 12v directly to my pump from the battery. The car then fired right up!

On the NA 1987
I have found FP and B+ and I wired(sodered) them together, well as far as I know B+ = Black with Red rings, and FP = Yellow.
Well Tonight my father and I found out the the blue wire is the 12volts, not the black and red rings, or the yellow.

So What is wrong? This 2jzgte swap relies heavily on this, PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!!

Also, is the walbro supposed to run all the time? Cause it is LOUD!

The goddamn robots john...

[IJ.]

OP feels this will get more/quicker responses in general so it's back again ;)

[SupraMario]

Thanks Ian.
Yea no one checks the (other engines sub forum) :(

[Dr Tweak]

Uh.... you actually don't need to do that at all, with the way I wired it up, you connect the FC wire to a switch which goes to ground and when it's on, it's running 100%. The FP wire isn't connected to anything anymore!!! :)

Hope that helps!

-Doc

PS: Where were you told that you need to do this? Because that info is wrong, wrong wrong, and we should make sure it's fixed.

[SupraMario]

Uh.... you actually don't need to do that at all, with the way I wired it up, you connect the FC wire to a switch which goes to ground and when it's on, it's running 100%. The FP wire isn't connected to anything anymore!!! :)

Hope that helps!

-Doc

PS: Where were you told that you need to do this? Because that info is wrong, wrong wrong, and we should make sure it's fixed.

HAH! Wow!

I just got this from looking around, I figured I would have to by pass the resistor that makes the FP only get 12 volts.

Well that was simple! Awesome Doc, time to get out of bed and go see if it works now!

[jdub]

Tweak - Just to be sure I understand what you are saying, your advocating disconnecting the FC wire from the ECU and installing a switch to ground? Then the driver manually operates the switch (or leaves it on) to turn the pump on with the ignition on?

If this is correct, you realize you're bypassing a safety feature of the ECU...the pump will run as long as the ignition is on.

D34 - When you say "12V relay mod", are you wanting to install a relay in the back hooked up to battery power to run the pump?

[SupraMario]

Tweak - Just to be sure I understand what you are saying, your advocating disconnecting the FC wire from the ECU and installing a switch to ground? Then the driver manually operates the switch (or leaves it on) to turn the pump on with the ignition on?

If this is correct, you realize you're bypassing a safety feature of the ECU...the pump will run as long as the ignition is on.

D34 - When you say "12V relay mod", are you wanting to install a relay in the back hooked up to battery power to run the pump?

Yes this is something I was wondering, why does the pump always run, I hooked everything back up as the Doc said and it runs but the pump is on ALL the time.

Yes I did the 12 v relay, but it was not working properly because of the switch the Doc put in.

The other reason I should have read, and it should be known, is the 12v relay mod IS AND SHOULD ONLY be used for people with bad wiring in the back... IT IS NOT NEEDED if everything is good back there. I don't know why I did it.

The by pass of the fuel resistor mod is the only thing most people need to do when installing a walbro to get the 12v.

Correct me if I am wrong but after everything is said and done, the relay is worthless.

-Mario

[isnms]

I don't have the answer for you. I tried to get some discussion on this - Fuel pump upgrade & wiring (http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78225) - but has not gone anywhere.
I do have three different wiring options diagrammed. Maybe one could help you.

[jdub]

Not completely true...the 12V relay in the back essentially replaces the stock FP relay. Walbro pumps pull a bit more current...the stock wiring (assuming good condition) can handle it, but using 10GA battery power is is much better, especially if you have the battery in the back. Power to the pump travels a shorter distance.

Grounding FC (taking FC away from ECU control) is a bad idea. The ECU uses the CPS Ne signal to determine if the motor is running and grounds FC internally. If the motor suddenly stops (i.e. a wreck), fuel pump operation is terminated to alleviate a fire hazard. Power to the stock pump comes from the circuit opening relay...it has inputs from STA at the ECU to control the stock pump on engine start. You want to keep this relay.

In your case, you want to use the stock wiring to actuate the new 30A relay, using the power from the circuit opening relay...FC controls the circuit opening relay per above. Connecting B+ and FP is correct, but it has to be FP to the pump, not from the ECU (yellow wire).

In my '89 TEWD:
+B = Blue wire w/ black stripe
FP (to pump) = Black wire w/ red stripe...pretty sure this is your black w/ red rings wire...confirm by looking at the one going into the tank.

All you have to do is jump or connect these two wires on the harness side of the fuel pump relay connector...you can remove the relay and the resistor. You now have a ECU controlled wire to the rear to actuate your new 30A relay, for normal operation and engine start...call it FP if you like ;)


The by pass of the fuel resistor mod is the only thing most people need to do when installing a walbro to get the 12v.

And that's pretty easy too...just jump the two wires on harness side connector to the resistor. Use at least a 12GA wire. The pump will always run at 12V ;)

[SupraMario]

Yes but what about the wiring Doc did? The fuel pump switch. Black with red stripe and blue is the bypass of the resistor for 12 volts. BUT I still have that switch, If I just grounded it then it will still be on all the time. Should the pump run ALL the time? I thought that this was a possitive pressure system, meaning fuel pump runs for a bit on start up and goes until the engine is sucking in the gas basically from vacuum? Or am I wrong?

So the pump has to run ALL the time yes? or no?

[jdub]

Mario - Dump the switch and reconnect the FC wire to the ECU. Re-read the 2nd paragragh I posted above.
It will run all the time with the switch...it's dangerous if the car is in an accident.

Black w/ red stripe connected to Blue wire w/ black stripe also bypasses the stock starter relay, taking it and the resistor out of operation. If you wire it like I suggested, you will have all the features of the stock system, including fuel pump operation for start-up. the STA signal from the ECU enables this via the circuit opening relay. Once the engine is producing an Ne signal, FC keeps the circuit opening relay closed.

Just use the black/red wire to operate the relay you have in the back. Is your battery back there?

[SupraMario]

Mario - Dump the switch and reconnect the FC wire to the ECU. Re-read the 2nd paragragh I posted above.
It will run all the time with the switch...it's dangerous if the car is in an accident.

If you wire it like I suggested, you will have all the features of the stock system, including fuel pump operation for start-up. the STA signal from the ECU enables this via the circuit opening relay. Once the engine is producing an Ne signal, FC keeps the circuit opening relay closed.

Just use the black/red wire to operate the relay you have in the back. Is your battery back there?

No battery is not in the back. I realize that is dangerous, but I need to know if it can be run this way until I get to cookeville, it just needs to make one trip, and then I can rewire it, as I got pissed about the relay shit and cut it out, because it was causing problems.

I also did not do the wiring on this engine, so I have no clue how to wire this back into the ECU.

[jdub]

It wasn't the 30A relay causing the problem ;)

Who wired the switch in to ground FC (green wire in my TEWD)?

Yes, it will work. I hope nothing happens...your last move before you go unconscious in an accident better be to turn off the ignition.

[SupraMario]

It wasn't the 30A relay causing the problem ;)

Who wired the switch in to ground FC (green wire in my TEWD)?

Yes, it will work. I hope nothing happens...your last move before you go unconscious in an accident better be to turn off the ignition.

Always have always will. The wire for the FC was just bare from the harness, Doc did that, and I put the switch on.
It only needs to make 1 trip, then I will be fixing it.

[Jaguar_5]

In my '89 TEWD:
+B = Blue wire w/ black stripe
FP (to pump) = Black wire w/ red stripe...pretty sure this is your black w/ red rings wire...confirm by looking at the one going into the tank.

All you have to do is jump or connect these two wires on the harness side of the fuel pump relay connector...you can remove the relay and the resistor. You now have a ECU controlled wire to the rear to actuate your new 30A relay, for normal operation and engine start...call it FP if you like ;)



And that's pretty easy too...just jump the two wires on harness side connector to the resistor. Use at least a 12GA wire. The pump will always run at 12V ;)

This is the part that somewhat confuses me, If you're running a new relay, and a dedicated B+ line, the pump is getting the full voltage no matter what, so jumpering the +B and FP only ensures that the voltage stays at 12 volts to keep the relay engaged, correct?

Btw, Mario, have you checked the 12 volt mod with pics thread that we have in the technical section? Wiring up a relay is SO easy as long as you understand the basic principle

[jdub]

Jag - You can look at this 3 ways depending if you're using the stock wiring to power the pump, simple resistor bypass, or using the stock wiring to trigger a relay providing battery power to the pump.

1) Stock wiring to power the pump:
Connect +B = Blue wire w/ black stripe to FP (to pump) = Black wire w/ red stripe
The circuit closing relay is now powering the pump directly...it deletes the stock FP relay and resistor. The pump will run at 12V at all times.

2) Simple resistor bypass:
Jump the resistor connector on the harness side. The stock fuel pump relay is still active and switched by FP from the ECU (yellow wire). However, both positions on the stock relay are powered by 12V. The pump will run at 12V at all times...you will get a voltage "blip" at switch (as you do stock).

3) Stock wiring to trigger a relay providing battery power to the pump:
This is what you are talking about and is done to provide the 12V necessary (since the Bosch relay uses a 12V trigger). In this case, the circuit opening relay provides the power just like #1 above, but it is to the trigger side of the new relay. Power is provided to the pump via a battery hot wire on the switched side of the relay. Bottom line, you are correct ;)

[Jaguar_5]

Wow, such a detailed response, what a fantastic wealth of knowledge you are, I love reading your posts :)

Thanks for clarification!

[SupraMario]

This is the part that somewhat confuses me, If you're running a new relay, and a dedicated B+ line, the pump is getting the full voltage no matter what, so jumpering the +B and FP only ensures that the voltage stays at 12 volts to keep the relay engaged, correct?

Btw, Mario, have you checked the 12 volt mod with pics thread that we have in the technical section? Wiring up a relay is SO easy as long as you understand the basic principle

LOL, yea I did, thats how I wired mine up, I talked with shaeff alot too about it. The thing I did not know is Doc did the bypass thing for me.

[jdub]

D34 - I was meaning to ask...how is pump wired now?

Is this on a 7M or 2J ECU?

The switch Doc installed...where is it? Or, is FC just grounded somewhere?

There might be a reason Doc wired FC the way he did, but I can't picture it.

[SupraMario]

D34 - I was meaning to ask...how is pump wired now?

Is this on a 7M or 2J ECU?

The switch Doc installed...where is it? Or, is FC just grounded somewhere?

There might be a reason Doc wired FC the way he did, but I can't picture it.

LOL nooo, 2jzgte ECU. The wire with the switch is right off the ECU, like its on the harness, but it has enough length to connect to the ECU itself, this wire is on a switch that is grounded back around to my engine bay. My pump is wired just like the Walbro is supposed to be wired. Basically when I turn on the ignition, pump is on, when key is in ON position.

[IJ.]

QuickNeasy "fix" would be to use an LPG safety switch.

It watches for RPM if there's none it shuts the power off.

[SupraMario]

QuickNeasy "fix" would be to use an LPG safety switch.

It watches for RPM if there's none it shuts the power off.


O.O that sounds like an awesome thing! Cause then it won't run when the car is in the ON position but not starting! YAY

So where is a good place to buy one? And how much are they? And where would I wire it too?

[jetjock]

The automotive equivalent is known as an RPM Relay. Bosch makes several models that were used on older cars. An inertia switch is also commonly used for this. Makes for a handy anti-theft device too...

[IJ.]

You could wire it between the line you have from the ECU to the Fuel pump relay then all it needs is a rpm signal.
(This is how the stock ECU acts normally)

I guess anywhere that Supplies/Fits LPG/Propane systems for RV's/cars/trucks?

Not real expensive.

I have a couple here but you need one now I guess?

[SupraMario]

You could wire it between the line you have from the ECU to the Fuel pump relay then all it needs is a rpm signal.
(This is how the stock ECU acts normally)

I guess anywhere that Supplies/Fits LPG/Propane systems for RV's/cars/trucks?

Not real expensive.

I have a couple here but you need one now I guess?

No don't need one now, as this car is going to Cookeville and then going under the knife again to make sure everything is running %100.

[IJ.]

Haven't read through the whole thread but why can't the 2J ecu control the pump as normal?

[SupraMario]

Haven't read through the whole thread but why can't the 2J ecu control the pump as normal?

It can...but I didn't do the wiring, doc did. He did a switch though, basically instead of the wiring going to the ECU he left it bare and told me to wire a switch to it so I did. Turn the switch on...power to fuel pump, turn it off and no power, but when I leave the switch on, and turn the ignition to on and not start, the pump runs. So basically it turns on without the engine being started.

[IJ.]

ewwww that sucks..

Any reason he does it that way?

[jdub]

An inertia switch is also commonly used for this.


I believe the Ford Crowne Victoria uses these ;)

Ian - wondering the same thing myself.

[SupraMario]

ewwww that sucks..

Any reason he does it that way?


I believe the Ford Crowne Victoria uses these ;)

Ian - wondering the same thing myself.

We won't know until The good doc replies to this thread :P

[jetjock]

I believe the Crown Vic does. So do many older Ford trucks and Jags, among others. So do Deloreans and ELTs ;)

Also known as a Rolomite Switch. Basically a steel ball held in place by a magnet that when dislodged in a collision opens a set of contacts. And yeah, it's bad news not having at least something...

[jdub]

Yep...a weenie roast waiting to happen.

LOL...sudden stops do activate an ELT!
I was thinking about using one of these inertia switches in the rear of the car as an added measure.

[SupraMario]

I believe the Crown Vic does. So do many older Ford trucks and Jags, among others. So do Deloreans and ELTs ;)

Also known as a Rolomite Switch. Basically a steel ball held in place by a magnet that when dislodged in a collision opens a set of contacts. And yeah, it's bad news not having at least something...

Yea I know, believe me I am the first person to scold people when they do stupid unsafe shit.
Just hope this one time doesn't get me killed that I break my own rules.

[jetjock]

Lmao. More than a few ELTs have been tracked to the trunk of a car or a dumpster. Lets just say I know for a fact you Air Force guys and the CAP are not amused when it happens ;)

[SupraMario]

This may sound stupid but what does ELT stand for?

[jdub]

LOL...Guard is hardwired on (at least on the jets I flew). Lets say an ELT is highly irritating ;)

Mario - Emergency Locator Transmitter...transmits on UHF 243.0 and/or VHF 121.5...the new ones also on 406 MHz.

[Dr Tweak]

Hey guys,

Of course there's a reason for the FC circuit not being connected to the computer: this is a 2JZGTE ECU, which DOES NOT HAVE AN FC CIRCUIT.

The 2JZGTE actually communicates with another ECU, called the fuel pump ECU (which replaced the C/OPN relay). Since no one that I know of has ever installed the said Fuel Pump ECU into their car when doing a 2JZ swap, the only way to turn the fuel pump on is with a switch running to the stock relay.

FP (the wire going to the ECU which switches between high and low voltage) is also not used by the 2JZGTE ECU, which means that when the fuel pump is running, it's always in the default condition (high voltage). Thus, no bypass is needed.

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO THE 2JZ SWAP! :) Now if you want to do an easy bypass on the stock ECU, just cut the yellow FP (not FC!!!) wire, and the pump will always be running full voltage.

As far as safety, I do agree that it is best to have the fuel pump shut off when the engine is off, but the only way to do that would be to either 1. Locate and install a Toyota/Lexus Fuel Pump ECU or 2. Install a device like you guys were talking about (RPM activated relay). I'll have to look into that to see if I can pick some up to stock, I hadn't heard of them before. MSD has some RPM activated switches but they are $$$.

-Doc

[Dr Tweak]

I was just looking around and found this part:

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=6967

Seems like it would do the trick, I'm a dealer for MSD so I'll have to see what kind of price I can get on these...

-Doc

[jdub]

Of course there's a reason for the FC circuit not being connected to the computer: this is a 2JZGTE ECU, which DOES NOT HAVE AN FC CIRCUIT.



LOL...GOOD reason ;)


The MSD switches require a RPM module...I didn't see one at a low enough RPM to be useful.

[Dr Tweak]

Tweak - these require a RPM module...I didn't see one at a low enough RPM to be useful.

Yeah me neither, I'm actually on the phone with them right now....

[Dr Tweak]

WOW. MSD customer service is TERRIBLE. The guy just was like, "Nope, don't have it" and hung up on me.

I'm talking to another company that builds these kinds of things now...

[IJ.]

I was just looking around and found this part:

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=6967

Seems like it would do the trick, I'm a dealer for MSD so I'll have to see what kind of price I can get on these...

-Doc

The LPG safety switches are reasonably cheap and would work perfectly in this application Tweak.

Here's a first hit on e-bay/google (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/GAS-TECH-GAS-SAFETY-SWITCH,BRAND-NEW,LPG,DUAL-FUEL_W0QQitemZ150285020860QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20080820?IMSfp=TL080820173r24971)

[Dr Tweak]

All well and good if you're down under, I can't find those anywhere here!

-Doc

[jdub]

Might want to contact these guys...they have a US office:
http://www.gastec.ws/contactdetails.htm

About this:
http://www.gastec.ws/productSD40.html

[tissimo]

What does the stock ecu do with the fuel pump trigger to the fuel pump ecu? does it give a constant 12v signal? does it give a ground? I havn't tested it, not do any of the manuals I've looked at say anything. Once we figure that out we can figure out how to get around it.

[IJ.]

All well and good if you're down under, I can't find those anywhere here!

-Doc

I buy stuff from the USA all the time so I'm assuming that mail works the other way around as well ;)

[jdub]

What does the stock ecu do with the fuel pump trigger to the fuel pump ecu? does it give a constant 12v signal? does it give a ground? I havn't tested it, not do any of the manuals I've looked at say anything. Once we figure that out we can figure out how to get around it.


I was wondering the same thing about the 2J ECU...either 12V or gnd could be used to trigger a relay.

[Dr Tweak]

I was wondering the same thing about the 2J ECU...either 12V or gnd could be used to trigger a relay.

Yeah I was trying to think of a pin on the ECU that gives either of those signals all the time and only when the engine is running, but I can't think of anything. All the ECU inputs and outputs work normally with the key on/engine off.


What does the stock ecu do with the fuel pump trigger to the fuel pump ecu? does it give a constant 12v signal? does it give a ground? I havn't tested it, not do any of the manuals I've looked at say anything. Once we figure that out we can figure out how to get around it.

ECUs that use a Circuit Opening Relay give a ground signal on the FC circuit to turn the pump on.


Might want to contact these guys...they have a US office:
http://www.gastec.ws/contactdetails.htm

About this:
http://www.gastec.ws/productSD40.html

Yeah I found them yesterday and sent them an email, I called but they said that they don't answer the phone and they prefer email, no response yet but I'm hopeful :)

-Doc

[Dr Tweak]

Okay I've been in contact with an electronics company I work with and I have good news. They can build us a module to turn the fuel pump on when a tach signal is being received just like we need. The module is $99. If anyone wants one, just let me know!

-Doc

[Dr Tweak]

Well good news guys, I may have figured out a way to accomplish this same thing in the $40 - $45 range, stay tuned :)

[suprabad]

I apologize if this is a stupid question, but why not use the original fuel system ecu?

[Dr Tweak]

The one from a Lexus or MK4 Supra? Well, it would work, but it would involve rewiring the fuel pump system (replacing the Circuit Opening Relay)... since that's not part of the engine harnes, I wouldn't be able to do it here.

-Doc

[SupraMario]

That and it would be something extra to buy or find. As most engine clips just come with wireing harness and ECU.

[turbogate]

Am I correct in assuming that those with standalones don't have this worry since they can definitly activate a fuel pump at a certain rpm?

Thanks

[Dr Tweak]

Seems like all the standalones out there would have that feature built in.

-Doc

[IJ.]

All MoTeC and All Wolf ECU's do.