101MM Stroke 7MGE

[DEFIANT 7M]

Starting from scratch...

The set up: Modified 7M crank stroke increased to 101mm, 85mm bore, race port/polish cylinder head w/2JZ valves, dry sump, 15:1 compression.


Allan :cool:

[Race Bred]

Any updates on the dry sump pan/pump mount? :)
Amazing build up btw. It is a shame that the old thread is no longer...

Edit: What were your final 'safe' bore numbers from sonic testing?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Any updates on the dry sump pan/pump mount? :)
Amazing build up btw. It is a shame that the old thread is no longer...

Edit: What were your final 'safe' bore numbers from sonic testing?

I'll be posting pics of the pan shortly. Kevco modified the stock pan for the dry sump. The final "safe bore" was 86mm. The sonic test was well worth extra cost. Be for we bored the block we "rocked the block" with Hard Blok.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here are some crank pics.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=974236
Block clearancing for the crank.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1011179
The crank scrapper.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=997438
Hacked oil pump drive..wont need it anymore.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1013759

[Race Bred]

Did you go with 2j pistons or custom? The Hard Blok sounds interesting... Even with the stock 91mm stroke and 86mm pistons the displacement comes out to be 3.1716L vs. 2.9541L with the stock piston...a .2175L improvement for a minimal cost (as compared to a stroker). Dose Hard Blok cure the problem of running hotter with an over bored motor (in theory of course since you have yet to run yours)?

[Dirgle]

What caused you to decide to go with 15:1 compression? Last I remember reading it was 11:1. Aside from that I've been waiting to see this engine run and prove the skeptics wrong. Good Luck man. :D

[DEFIANT 7M]

Did you go with 2j pistons or custom? The Hard Blok sounds interesting... Even with the stock 91mm stroke and 86mm pistons the displacement comes out to be 3.1716L vs. 2.9541L with the stock piston...a .2175L improvement for a minimal cost (as compared to a stroker). Dose Hard Blok cure the problem of running hotter with an over bored motor (in theory of course since you have yet to run yours)?

Custom piston from Diamond Racing. They have a 4cc dome, gas ported, short skirt. We had to send the head and the head gasket to them to make the pistons. They used the head too digitize the combustion chamber into the CNC. They need the head gasket to get the center line and some other specs. With the stroke the displacement is 3.5L ;) The HardBlok should cure the running hotter problem and also strengthen the block. I've watched them "rock" several circle track engines. By rights most of these engines should overheat with the type of cooling systems they have, but they don't.

[DEFIANT 7M]

What caused you to decide to go with 15:1 compression? Last I remember reading it was 11:1. Aside from that I've been waiting to see this engine run and prove the skeptics wrong. Good Luck man. :D
Thanks man we will make it. I wanted to make sure we hit the goal. So we started the build around 14:5 compression. Once we pluged everything in we could not find a set of rings with the specs we wanted. So insted of the ultra safe 84mm bore we went to 85mm. Which jumped the compression up to 15:1.

[IJ.]

D7M: A huge percentage of the heat comes from the Head so filling the block shouldn't cause problems in motor that isn't going to see sustained effort.

Keeping in mind you have to leave an inch or so of the block from the deck down empty so the coolant can flow through all the passages in the head.
(I bet you know this anyway) ;)

A friend of a friend ran an old Chrysler Hemi this way in a drag car with no issues.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Posted this in SF.
The final bore is 85mm, we were looking for 84.5. But there isn't a large ring selection for the specs we want. In going to this bore somethings have changed. The half point in bore size along with a 4cc dome puts the compression at 15.01 (actually 14.94). Displacement 3.458 or 211 cu in. We are going with a low tension ring set. Which will be no problem since we will use a dry sump port for crankcase vac. Also the pistons are gas ported. We also ran an engine analyzer program just to see some figures.

Piston Speed--- Vol Eff % (85mm throttle body@1527cfm )

3000 rpm-2000--- 83.8
3500 rpm-2333--- 88.9
4000 rpm-2667--- 94.1
4500 rpm-3000--- 99.8
5000 rpm-3333--- 101.1
5500 rpm-3667--- 100.0
6000 rpm-4000--- 100.8
6500 rpm-4333--- 94.8
************
7000 rpm-4667--- 89.6
7500 rpm-5000--- 87.1

378hp@the crank 6000 rpm. Tq peaked @ 5000rpm -365 lbs. At 3000 rpm tq is 254 lbs You get the idea. 5000 rpm is 341hp/365 tq At 6000 rpm tq fell to 349. Gotta love that stroke..

[DEFIANT 7M]

My error the bore is 85mm not 86mm looking at the SF thread I realized my mistake. We could take the bore too 86mm but Daryle did not see the need.

[DEFIANT 7M]

A word of caution to anyone doing a complete rebuild. If you get your block "hot tanked", there are two things to look out for. The bushing that the oil pump shaft sits in can be pushed out with ease. Also, what this one is I have no clue. Directly inline with the vent tube driverside front near alternator. In the block there is another bushing????? Why it is there makes no since. But if that thing were to fall out it would destroy an engine!!! It push out with ease also (just with a finger!!). Daryl said when blocks are hot tanked any bushings (brass or other) shrink and can be pushed out with no problem. I'll post pics of them.

[IJ.]

I think it's the old lower bush from the GT2000 distributor Allan.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here is a break down of a Dry sump vs Wet sump, for some of the new guys who may know what it is but not really. (I got this out of Canton Racing Products Catalog)

"In a nutshell, the difference between a wet sump system and a dry sump system is where the oil is stored. In a wet sump system the oil is stored in the oil pan itself. The oil is pumped to your engine using an engine mounted oil pump usually in the oil pan. A dry sump system stores the oil in a remotely mounted tank. The oil is scavenged or sucked out of the pan and also sometimes from the lifter valley. This goes thru a multistage dry sump pump and is then sent to the storage tank. It is then pulled back through the pump and pumped back in to the engine. Along the way it passes through a series of filters, oil coolers, yards of stainless braided hose and occasionally has a short layover in Pittsburg waiting for a connecting flight. (Still awake?) Dry sump systems are more complicated and costly than wet sumps. The average dry sump set-up has the ability to scavenge 2 to 4 times the volume that it pumps into the engine. This causes "negative crankcase pressure," which gives you horsepower. Dry sump systems also offer a more stable supply of oil in all conditions since there isn't a rapidly spinning crankshaft located right above the oil. In a nutshell a dry sump cost more but works better. Big nutshell, huh?"

[DEFIANT 7M]

With this long stroke we need to look at some problems we may face. One major one being, torsional vibration. I'm not really clear on this yet. But we are looking into a functional damper to address this http://www.atiperformanceproducts.com/products/dampers/damperparts/ Use the drop down window and go to dampers. Daryl picked up my stock crank pulley and first put it on a SB Chevy crank (nope too small). Then a BB Chevy crank (almost fit with a little honing it would!). Then a 302 Ford, perfect!! So then we looked at dampers from ATI for the 302 (or 5.0s). We then found out ATI offers import dampers for the 5M and 2JZ, but no 7M The 2J may be an option, but the 302 may be a bigger option. Since custom pulley sets can be made fairly easy for it with little cost.
One of the main reasons I picked the 7M crank vs the 6M crank was it has more counterweights. Which makes it a better balanced crank. Our stock crank pulley is a damper to some extent but it may not have enough. I wanted to use an Unorthodox pulley. But from what I've learned so far that may be the wrong way to go. When I learn more I'll pass it on

[DEFIANT 7M]

I think it's the old lower bush from the GT2000 distributor Allan.
Really!!! That thing could screw and engine up really bad. I had no clue why or what it was doing there. The same bushing is in two other 7M blocks I have. Thanks for the info IJ.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Pics of the Barnes 9017 dry sump pump.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here are pics of the girdle sample from Arnout. I modified it to fit the stroke and sent it back to him. Now I'm just waiting for the actual main girdle. One pic is the girdle made for Christian.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1145138

I got this from SF..A post from Arnout's own 2JZ stroker thread.

"Quote
I'm not going to invest money in the forged/billet steel main caps, stock bottom ends are pretty strong so should stock main caps. To add extra strength on the bottom end we have made a lasercut cradle (or stud plate) to be mounted on top of the main caps. A lot of honda and nissan engines have this from the factory. I haven't made a picture of the 2jz plate, but here is a 7M plate I made recently for the 700rwhp 7M engine I'm building for Christian in Germany."



__________________

[Idealsupra]

allan where can i get one of those girdles?

also im wondering if a scraper could fit there as well....

[DEFIANT 7M]

allan where can i get one of those girdles?

also im wondering if a scraper could fit there as well....

PM Arnout on SF. There will be room for the scraper.

[DEFIANT 7M]

I've done a lot of things with this engine I really didn't understand, until sometime later. This is one of those things.
We machined the shim bucket (some call them lifters) bores to accept the 2000 and up Toyota Echo shimless bucket. Why??? The cams have such a radical lift they will "spit" the shims out. Or knock them right off the top of the buckets. Machined the bores? The stock 7M buckets are 28mm in diameter, the Echo buckets are 32mm. The cost is about $12.00 per bucket and they come in a range of sizes too match cam lash. I got lucky and had a 2JZ N/A given to me that thru a rod. We stripped the engine and Daryle walks over to my 7M head and says look these buckets fit! Well that was money saved to say the least. At the time the main concern was stoping the "shim spit" problem. Daryle said there was another plus to this mod. It follows the mod many BB Chevy guys do. By enlarging the lifter bore size using BB Chrysler lifters in BB Chevys. The larger bore will change the ramp rates, overall cam duration, and maximum lift numbers. Which will change the dynamics of my cams...too the good ;) I was wondering why he had me get the cams I did, know I understand. I will pick up more duration @ say .020 vs a cam of a similar spec @ .050. Not to mention the increase in lift. I guess you can say the cams will have more leverage to open the valves quicker and a bit longer. Here are a few pics of the Echo buckets.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=630110

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here is a good article on cams and ramp rates. http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pages/4A-GE%20camshaft_story.htm

[DEFIANT 7M]

IJ I wish I could see that 240z... A friend of mine has one also except he has a 383 in it :yumyum:

prsrcokr..thanks :bigthumb:

Here are some pics of the 2JZ shim bucket (lifter) next to a 7M shim bucket.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1288278

[IJ.]

Allan: This Z just sounds Evil!

I'm guessing your Stroker will sound much the same if not better!
(LOT of Comp does that, nice crisp note)

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here is an article that helped me with my oil pan.
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/76818/

[DEFIANT 7M]

Just a glimps :icon_wink

[DEFIANT 7M]

Just goofin off check this out..

You are running 22 PSI of boost at an altitude of 5000 feet. Your motor's static compression is 8.5 :1. At this boost level and altitude your effective compression ratio is -20.22 :1, and without altitude correction your compression ratio would be 21.22 :1.
VS
You are running 6 PSI of boost at an altitude of 5000 feet. Your motor's static compression is 15 :1. At this boost level and altitude your effective compression ratio is -20.12 :1, and without altitude correction your compression ratio would be 21.12 :1.

This is just bench racing.....

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compression.htm

[DEFIANT 7M]

So what do 15:1 7MGE pistons look like? :crazy1:

[DEFIANT 7M]

A few more.

[DEFIANT 7M]

As they sit the compression is 15:3, we will do some mild blending to bring the compression to 15:1.

[IJ.]

Going to coat them once they're deburred?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Going to coat them once they're deburred?
yes sir :bigthumb: The valve faces and combustion chamber too.

[IJ.]

mmm nice!

Have to wonder how well it adheres?

Like if the motor pings will it shake it loose?

[DEFIANT 7M]

mmm nice!

Have to wonder how well it adheres?

Like if the motor pings will it shake it loose?
Makes sense...But a lot of circle track cars use it here.

[IJ.]

I imagine if it's done right it would stick like shit to a blanket but was just a thought! ;)

[IJ.]

The ACL pistons I used are coated stock :)!
(must be good if they go to that trouble on replacement cast pistons)

[DEFIANT 7M]

The ACL pistons I used are coated stock :)!
(must be good if they go to that trouble on replacement cast pistons)
Thats true..I'm going with Calico Coatings.

[IJ.]

I can see a set of Ross forged in my future so will have to look into coatings! ;)

[DEFIANT 7M]

I am going to have to have some sort of engine managment. I am looking hard @ this.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950.html
One main reason is cost! For you Advance Auto guys WE SELL IT!!!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Is the Motec DOS based?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Looks like some good reading...
http://www.themotorbookstore.com/hi...-injection.html

[Allan_MA70]

www.motec.com.au enjoy!

[prsrcokr]

Looks like a nice option Defiant. Wouldn't be PnP and I guess we'd have to swap for a GM knock sensor (wonder if you could calibrate to use the stock ones) Is the AEM 16x16 or does it have a higher resolution?

It does look like this has most of the features you'd need and then some.
Brian W

[Allan_MA70]

nope motec can talk to all the 7m sensors and even the toyota ignitor!

[DEFIANT 7M]

I got the girdle from Arnout today :bigthumb: WOW!!!!

[Alpinesupra]

dude that is the most wicked 7mge i have ever seen, cant wait to see it run.
what tranny did or are you useing? the stock w58?
-sean

[DEFIANT 7M]

dude that is the most wicked 7mge i have ever seen, cant wait to see it run.
what tranny did or are you useing? the stock w58?
-sean
Hey thanks man, I will be using a R154 with a 4:56 ring gear.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Going back thru I notice some links don't work or the pics aren't showing. So I have added some thumbnail attachments. I love how the thumbnail attachments look. Here are some shots of the block clearanced for the stroke, also a few before the grinding :biglaugh:

[DEFIANT 7M]

A few more..

[DEFIANT 7M]

The oil pump drive is not needed anymore. It is just an idler know, so I cut it :biglaugh: The other reason is the rods don't clear it with the stroke.

[IJ.]

Allan: Ever thought of getting a shorter timing belt and get rid of it altogether?

I did this with a 2 litre Astron I built for the balance shafts just had to plug the oil holes.
(Looks brilliant so far can't wait to hear it run)

[DEFIANT 7M]

Thanks IJ..I have thought about a shorter timing belt.

[IJ.]

If it's anything like the high comp NA L28 datto at my tuners it's going to sound fantastic :)!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Has anyone used these thrust washers?
http://www.aapmotorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=917

[DEFIANT 7M]

If it's anything like the high comp NA L28 datto at my tuners it's going to sound fantastic :)!
I hope so, it might sound like a super bike on steriods :crazy1:

[IJ.]

Allan: Saw the thrusts there but will wait and see what I need for the new motor!

What sort of RPM limit are you looking at for the stroker?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan: Saw the thrusts there but will wait and see what I need for the new motor!

What sort of RPM limit are you looking at for the stroker?
I'm going to get them I think.. No more than stock, 7000 if it seems to be okay at that point. Also if I'm brave enough to take it there. Daryle says not to think about max rpm, it's more of a motor making max power/torque low/mid in the rpm band. It should be a blast to drive at the drags and SCCA events, and just evil on the street. It should make 240lbs tq @ 3000rpm, thats moving out really quick.

[Alpinesupra]

Hey thanks man, I will be using a R154 with a 4:56 ring gear.

ok on the tranny i would have done the same, but why such high gearing?
unless i got it backwards?
-sean

[DEFIANT 7M]

ok on the tranny i would have done the same, but why such high gearing?
unless i got it backwards?
-sean
The 5th gear is from a 88 V6 Pickup/4Runner with a R150 trans. It is a .565 ratio vs stock R154 ratio of .674. The final will be .63 5th vs a .75 stock.
4.30 x .75=3.225
4.56 x .63=2.873 should cruise nicely and the down shift too 4th just ugly!

3rd and 4th gear it should flat out run from just about anything out there. Should run mid 12s without the shot maybe better. The shot should knock close to a sec. off.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Today I came across this in a Holley catalog.

Fuel Pumps:

Liters-----Gallons Per Hr.-----Pounds Per Hr.
190--------------50---------------301
220--------------58---------------345
255--------------67---------------404
378-------------100---------------600 (close to a MKIV pump)
567-------------150---------------900
756-------------200---------------1200

Typically @ WOT an engine needs 0.5lbs of fuel per hr. A gallon of gas weighs about 6lbs. An engine making 350hp will need about 175lbs (29 gallons) per hour.

350 x .5 = 175lbs of gas
175lbs/6lbs = 29 gallons per hour.

The stock MkIII fuel pump puts out 55-60 gallons per hour about 650hp or so. A MKIV TT pump puts out 90-95 gallons per hour about 1100hp. The Walbro really doesn't put out that much more than the stock MKIII pump. Any thoughts on this???

[DEFIANT 7M]

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm

[prsrcokr]

How many people have you known that have made 650 hp with the stock mk3 pump?
Brian W

[DEFIANT 7M]

How many people have you known that have made 650 hp with the stock mk3 pump?
Brian W
NONE

[7MGTEJoe]

I wonder where the guy who built that site got his numbers for the density range of gasoline. I bothered to look it up in one of my books and got 7.4 lb/gal for premium unleaded (Forced Induction Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell, 2002). When I checked the physics hypertextbook online I got 803 kg/m^3 and if I did my arithmetic right that converts to 6.7 lb/gal. Further investigation reveals that pump gasoline density has been changing as additive packages change to meet emission demands. I've also got some questions about BSFC assumptions that were made but right now I've got to go to class. Interesting topic Defiant!

[IJ.]

Allan: Another factor to consider is Turbo motors have the reg referenced to boost and flow decreases above a certain fuel pressure so a 225l/min pump may not actually flow that on a turbo motor.

[DEFIANT 7M]

I got a new toy today :D I have not seen this installed in a MKIII, but that has not stopped me before :evil2:

[Allan_MA70]

whats the software like?

[DEFIANT 7M]

whats the software like?Windows based, looks easy too use. Even for a gearhead like me :icon_wink

[DEFIANT 7M]

It has a datalogger feature also an AC request-raise the idle speed to a programmable amount when the A/C is turned on.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here are some pics of my dry sump pan. It is a modified stock pan done by KEVKO, in Fairmont, MN. They did an excellent job :bigthumb:

[DEFIANT 7M]

A few more.

[IJ.]

Allan: Any idea of how big and where the tank is going?
(Pan looks great) :)

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan: Any idea of how big and where the tank is going?
(Pan looks great) :)
Thanks IJ....I'm really unsure right know on that part.

[DEFIANT 7M]

IJ. LOL Allan!

Watching with interest!

7MGTEJoe Me too...

This is one of the most interesting 7M builds I've ever followed.

Thanks guys :)


Tank Location:
How about moving the battery? Or someplace in the nose like an intercooler. I change my mind on killing the PS, so the pan outlets are on the driver side. AC is on the chopping block....

[IJ.]

Allan: Don't know if you can get the depth needed (tanks are usually long and thin to seperate the air from the oil that the scavenge stages suck in)
<edit> Might work if you cut a hole where the battery tray is and made the tank to hang through!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan: Don't know if you can get the depth needed (tanks are usually long and thin to seperate the air from the oil that the scavenge stages suck in)
<edit> Might work if you cut a hole where the battery tray is and made the tank to hang through!
I like that idea

[IJ.]

The tank is just about the only thing stopping me going dry sump!

If you mount it in the Hatch they're noisy as buggery so for a road car not good! (Before the peanut gallery jumps in with crap about standard road cars with dry sumps save it they're NOT running after market scavenge pumps)

Only other place it might fit would be up on the firewall where the charcoal canister is (well on a RHD car)

[DEFIANT 7M]

Some time ago I was called too the carpet for saying @ xxx compression is equal to xxx boost! I could not find the article again for anything in the world. This may not mean anything, but it bugged the crap out of me :icon_conf Anyway here is a link to a compression calculator.
http://www.turbofast.com.au/TFcompB.html Here I go agian..in the area of 17-18 psi the compression is 15:1 :icon_wink VE@85%

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here is something I did while on the MKIV side of SF. The question/debate does piston speed increase by stroke! The 3.4 Titan kit for the 2JZ was the deal in question.

[group a supra]

well it would have to cause it has further to travel in the same time
deady easy

[DEFIANT 7M]

This thing is going to need more air than previously thought. So here I go into ITB land. Looking at some 4AG stuff right now, any thoughts?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Or maybe convert the lower intake like these.
http://www.redlineweber.com/html/throttle_bodies/Throttle%20bodies_side_mount.htm

[PHILLYSUPRA]

nice job. but you know what, i thought the 7m head has some combustion problems above 12.5cr how did you overcome this as 15:1 would cause a lot of detonation. the bowl shape is just to small to support this type of cr. on a side note (titanmotorsports) has a 7m head well worth looking at, it requires the use of your supplied cams and costs about 3500.00 but it might be able to help with itb's if your going that route.

[PHILLYSUPRA]

oh yeah and to siman. the itb's along with the 15:1 would only be useful on the top end as you would need crazy cams to to keep any type of air in the engine.

[DEFIANT 7M]

nice job. but you know what, i thought the 7m head has some combustion problems above 12.5cr how did you overcome this as 15:1 would cause a lot of detonation. the bowl shape is just to small to support this type of cr. on a side note (titanmotorsports) has a 7m head well worth looking at, it requires the use of your supplied cams and costs about 3500.00 but it might be able to help with itb's if your going that route.
Have not heard or seen anything on the 7M combustion chambers not able to handle high compression (above 12.5). Also if it were not feasible we would not even try this stunt. We have well over 100hrs. in this head with extensive flow bench testing to see what works. Titan has a nice head, but I would put mine up against them any day. Also my cams will demand ITBs with 12.5mm lift (.492) and 264 duration @ .50

So you from Philly? Born and raised myself left @ 12, we moved to Miami.

[PHILLYSUPRA]

first, naw born in ga moved to philly when i was 7. oh and i read from the toysport.com site on 7m modifications that it cannot be done. but.......... if you have done it and it works then i guess you're right and ill take it as that and i learned something new. what you have done has sparked a lot of ideas though, keep us updated. oh yeah todaracing.com has some good lift cams for that app. i think toda has 302 duration plus a bunch other i cant remember now.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here is a really good site.
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/Intro.htm

[Adjuster]

Nice to see this thread back on the SM.

Hope to see your 101mm stroker running soon Alan.

My 97mm one has survived a trip to Portland from Boise, and some 1000 miles now of running around pretty much untuned. (On good gas.)

Sounds like nothing else out there. (Very much a diesel truck lurking under my hood.) However, on the top end at 6K+ it's just mean sounding.

Dyno numbers from the Portland NWPac Supra's meet this past weekend were mixed. I made less top end, but could not get this cold motor to stop fuel cut due to too much Karmann Hz going to the TCCS. (Just running a piggyback Eman on the stock ECU.)
The good news is higher tourqe numbers at this lower boost level than I've ever seen yet.
How does 413.90 at about 3850rpm sound? (This was at 15lbs of boost per the Omori gauge peak, but I have no idea what the actual boost level was at that time, but close to 15psi is a good guess.) Best HP number it could muster was 372rwhp. But remember this was with the engine hitting fuel cut 3 times during the run.

IIRC, the old engine, on stock stroke and bore was about 420rwhp and 360's tourqe at 18psi.
I'm hoping to see the tourqe break 475 or even 500ft lbs, and rwhp levels in the mid 500's would be very nice indeed. (Especially when you consider this is a 60 trim bolt on T4 turbo running the stock exhaust manifold, and ITS built Turbonetics sourced CT type housing.)

Engine right now is rich off the scale as the boost comes on line fully. (Nice 12:1 line from throttle tip in to about 3500rpm, but then goes rich, so I'll have to tune out some fuel adjustment up there.)

BTW, that dry sump oil pan is very nice. I'd mount your sump like you plan where the battery goes. I ended up mounting my Canton filter on the right apron, and only had to drill one hole to mount the 4 bolts. (Used 3 stock captured nuts, they just worked out perfect.) I've managed to retain PS, and AC on this car too, so it's fun to cruise around, even in very hot weather.

I'm interested to see how that Holly EFI works out. I'm looking at various ways of improving my ECU setup, and either going with the new Greddy unit, or a full stand alone might be in the works one of these days.

Last, the BBC inner springs are working great. I've actually recorded a 7190rpm peak with no problems on this car. (Missed a shift I suppose, but found myself bouncing off the rev limiter at the track, and on the street if I'm not paying attention, it's that smooth at high RPM.) Also the tourqe breaks the tires loose, and your hitting the rev limiter before you know it. :)

Good luck on getting your even larger 7M going, and let us know about the harmonic dampeners. I'm also concerned about this on my engine, and with the right setup, this is a good mod for sure. (Especially if they machine a crank trigger into the part.... No more CPS would be fine with the right standalone ECU.)

[DEFIANT 7M]

Going to go with the 4AGE 20V throttle bodies. Working everything out as we speak. I'll add to it when I know more

[DEFIANT 7M]

Since I'm going with the 20V ITBs here is a good thread to check out. The 4AGE guys got some hardcore stuff!!

http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=95830

[DEFIANT 7M]

The "Silver" top 20V uses a 43mm throttle body. The "Black" top 20V uses a 45mm throttle body. Here is some good basic info from the Jenvey site.

What is the best throttle body diameter?
Factors influencing size are; Power output, RPM, cylinder head design, cylinder capacity, position of the throttle body in the inlet tract and position of the injector.

Choice of bore size is a balanced compromise resulting from the following;
1) A larger bore leads to lower flow resistance, but obeying the laws of diminishing returns.
2) A smaller bore leads to better throttle control and response (never underestimate) and improved fuel mixing.
3) The system should be considered in total - from (at least) trumpet flange to cylinder and proportioned accordingly.

Basic references for BHP per cylinder, assuming ca 120mm from butterfly to valve head and a max of 9,000 rpm are;
Up to 30 - 30mm, up to 33 - 32mm, up to 39 - 35mm, up to 46 - 38mm, up to 51 - 40mm, up to 56 - 42mm
Up to 65 - 45mm, up to 74 - 48mm, up to 80 - 50mm, up to 87 - 52mm, up to 93 - 54mm.
These power figures may be increased by up to 10% in a purpose - designed and well proportioned system.
As butterfly to valve distance increases, butterfly size will need to increase in proportion to system taper and vice versa.
Lower revving engines and those with injectors placed before the butterfly will generally accept a larger body.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Back from the dead!! Update: I was going to use ITBs from a 20V, but Arnout has come thru for me again! :icon_bigg I should have the ITBs and surge tank with a custom flange from a RB26 Skyline very soon.

[IHI-RHC7]

Allan, won't that surge tank point your "throttle body" or pipe.. so to speak up into your hood when mounted on a 7m?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan, won't that surge tank point your "throttle body" or pipe.. so to speak up into your hood when mounted on a 7m?
As it sits yes. Once I get it I'll see what modifications need to be done. We may do away with the surge tank not sure.

[IJ.]

Allan: What happens with the port spacing?

I guess it depends on where you graft it onto the 7M intake.

[bobiseverywhere]

Good question IJ

I am curious too. I thought about this many times and would love to know what really is involved to do something with those ITBS off of the RB26.

Also are you planning on controling the throtles individually as well? To fine tune for each Cylinder.

[Toycoma]

As it sits yes. Once I get it I'll see what modifications need to be done. We may do away with the surge tank not sure.yeah, either get rid of the surge tank or have a new one made. can it be unbolted and flipped over to bolt on correctly since even the itbs are going to be on back wards in a sense?

[xarewhyayen]

ive been mia for sometime... missed out on following this thread but now that ive read most of these 15 pages im hooked... awesome work and good job sharing it all.. GOOD LUCK!!! Get er runnin!! Ill be following from now on

[Mr.SelfDestruct]

yeah, either get rid of the surge tank or have a new one made. can it be unbolted and flipped over to bolt on correctly since even the itbs are going to be on back wards in a sense?


the tank is part of the tb's themselves, so I say he should chop the tank and go sidedraft itbs.

speaking of sidedraft itb's...

http://myspace-983.vo.llnwd.net/00435/38/93/435943983_l.jpg

[DEFIANT 7M]

LOL good to hear. I'm anxiously awaiting the debut of this pig!
Had to put it on hold a lot of things going on. Got my taste back while helping my brother with his car. As you know I don't do anything normal:biglaugh:http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11705 Yes it's a Honda!!

[DEFIANT 7M]

I know it has been sometime since I last updated this project. My intrest had become stagnated and foggy. But once I finished my brother's Honda, the last push to finish this "hurry up slow" project is red hot. Not to mention making 207hp and 189ft tq @ the wheels on a Mustang dyno "N/A" with a Honda!!

Something sinister is coming:evil2:

Thanks GrimJack for moving this thread...

[supra90turbo]

LOL as well. What did the RB26 tb setup run you?

[rot 90na-t]

This thing is going to need more air than previously thought. So here I go into ITB land. Looking at some 4AG stuff right now, any thoughts?
if ur still lookin for ITB's, i saw some at a local car show that were amazing billet pieces made by momar injection.. the guy will make whatever u need. www.momarefi.com ask for dusty

[bigaaron]

Since I'm going with the 20V ITBs here is a good thread to check out. The 4AGE guys got some hardcore stuff!!

http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=95830

Hardcore ITB? Look at this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/BigAaron/Nesei%20Week%20car%20show/th_DSCF2061Custom.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/BigAaron/Nesei%20Week%20car%20show/DSCF2061Custom.jpg)

[williamb82]

http://www.celicasupra.com/vbforums/showthread.php?t=20553

that is an insane setup thats almost ready to run on the mkii forums. all custom tb's. lots of pics of the mfg proccess as well.

[DEFIANT 7M]

LOL as well. What did the RB26 tb setup run you?
A little over $600.00.

Not much Allan you? ;)
Life hit me hard, but I'm still standing on my on power!

if ur still lookin for ITB's, i saw some at a local car show that were amazing billet pieces made by momar injection.. the guy will make whatever u need. www.momarefi.com ask for dusty
Hey thanks for the link:bigthumb:


Hardcore ITB? Look at this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/BigAaron/Nesei%20Week%20car%20show/th_DSCF2061Custom.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/BigAaron/Nesei%20Week%20car%20show/DSCF2061Custom.jpg)
That's nice.....



http://www.celicasupra.com/vbforums/showthread.php?t=20553

that is an insane setup thats almost ready to run on the mkii forums. all custom tb's. lots of pics of the mfg proccess as well.
I thought I was out there:nono: WOW!!! thanks man

[DEFIANT 7M]

Okay lets dust this thing off.. My electric water pump idea is coming full circle this is the pump I will be using http://www.meziere.com/images/rad%20mount%20WP161%20azoom.jpg . We have made an dummy plate to replace the actual water pump with AN fitings. Really funky nice, mine is the second one done so I know this will work.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Arnout is the man!!! Here is and updated girdle that connects all the mains. Since I have a drysump there is no pump in the way:icon_bigg . Thanks Arnout:thumbup:

[DEFIANT 7M]

Playing with a hp calculator, and bench racing with a friend of mine. The 4.56 may be too steep to ride thru the 1/4 @ 6500 rpm in fourth. I say 6500 rpm mainly because of the stroke. I may even like a little more rpm! With a 28" tire your trap speed should be around 118 mph. With a 26" tire your looking at 110 mph. My goal is to go 120 plus thru the 1/4... With a 28" tire and the stock 4.30 trap speed should be 126 mph, about 520 rwhp @ 3350lbs. Which should be a 10.81 run in a perfect world!

I can tell why it is taking so long, all the custom one-off stuff takes forever sometimes.
You are 100% right

If it's anything like the last High Comp I-6 I heard run even if you were stone deaf you'd hear/feel it :)!
That's what everyone is saying, hell I'm still unclear on a good muffler choice!

[hawk]

muffler, why? if any thing get a ture race muffler, just to get the sound down to a sane level.

[DEFIANT 7M]

muffler, why? if any thing get a ture race muffler, just to get the sound down to a sane level.
I do plan on driving this thing on the street. But yet I don't want to rob any power from it.

[DEFIANT 7M]

To be honest it is one of my choices http://www.supertrapp.com/product_sections/detail.asp?CatID=31&ItemID=546-3019 But for the money HP Freaks Golliath looks hard to beat.http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/price/Toyota/Supra_86-92/HorsepowerFreaks/Exhaust/Exhaust_Systems

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here are some pics from Arnout. He has laser cut flanges for the ITBs. WOW!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Some updated pics from Arnout:naughty:

[williamb82]

sweet. btw, you know if your old girdle will clear a 5m pump? i am using a 5m pump, but going wit ha 10an line from the pump to the block. lmk cause i still planned to grab it off you.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Got the ITBs from Arnout the other day ::w00t:: Here are some pics of the fabing of the ITB (RB26 to 7m) manifold.

[935motorsports]

Pretty sweet TBs.

Have you test fitted it yet? It seems to stick pretty far out to the side. It would be a shame to make the adapter then have it hit the strut tower.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Pretty sweet TBs.

Have you test fitted it yet? It seems to stick pretty far out to the side. It would be a shame to make the adapter then have it hit the strut tower.
Yes, the runners will only be 3'' long.

[IJ.]

Allan: Any estimates/guesses on power yet?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan: Any estimates/guesses on power yet?
450 all motor hopefully.

[IJ.]

Redline?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here are some more updates.. A very good friend of mine is doing the intake for me. He just sent me these updated pics. I guess your right Curtis, you DSM guys are crazy because you didn't blink and knocked this thing out in a day!!!!!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Redline?7200ish

[Kai]

Are they DCNF throttle bodies? Custom or off the shelf?

[IJ.]

7200ish
When will it start to make it's power?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Are they DCNF throttle bodies? Custom or off the shelf?
It is the complete stock RB26 throttle bodies and surge tank.

When will it start to make it's power?
Around 1700 I'm thinking.

is that made of steel or some thing
Yes, Arnount made the flanges from steel. The runners are steel also.

[SupraDerk]

450?? Oh my lord you're my new personal hero...

Seriously...I can't wait for you to finish this!


It is the complete stock RB26 throttle bodies and surge tank.

ooooooooo some Nissan and Toyota jungle love:wiggle:

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here is a pic of my muffler 4" in/out

[Curtis]

Well this is my first post here. I know absolutely nothing about supras, I just like building stuff. Its a have to case for me due to the fact I have a Galant VR4, you can't get parts for them very easily. I took it from a bone stock old car into a fairly mean toy. By the way Allan my GVR4 isn't a DSM. :tdo3:

Well I've amost got our boys intake done. The expantion chamber is port matched and polished and all the pin holes are welded up along with the fab braces cut off. I'm going to blend the welds down and epoxy up the runners inside and blend them out. Then he can powder coat or whatever. I can't believe none of you guys has done this yet. I'm going to do something similar on the VR4 except using big Ford 4.6 throttle bodies using high pressure/ low pressure zone technology like in turbine engines. Before anyone asks I do one off custom stuff and I don't duplicate for others. But I may look into rapid prototyping something like this and casting pieces like this later on. It just comes done to price. I'm trying to open up a CNC shop and seams like this maybe an item that would sell. I may use another type of itb that is easiler to find and cheaper than shipping stuff in from Japan. But it want be anytime soon. I still have alot of other jobs promissed and still haven't fired up my new mill. Plus GalantVR4.org keeps me busy as well. Because we always type messages like this. Bullet coments usually never happen due to the grammer police. :evildeal:
If any have cnc ideas email me. My machine is small and can't do large items. I should have it up and running this fall.
Well here's a picture enjoy

[IJ.]

Curtis: Pics of the CNC please ;)

[Curtis]

Per your request

The machine is a training model and works like shit as a training model due to the computer and hardware from EMCO. It will only hold about 200 lines of G code which is good for drilling holes and thats about it. But I have it wired up through a board from welsoft which is out of the UK it enables me to run the mill from a PC. I have all the current software and can simply draw the part as a soild model then run the drawing through a code writer like mastercam x and then send the code through the post processor to the mill. I can hold an huge amount of code in the harddrive and always have it backed up and can cut as big a program as I want. The mill has a work envelope of 8 x 8 x 4 inches and will cut down to 3 decimal places. As you can see the mill is super rigid and keeps its tolerances quiet well.

If you want to look at some software that can show things I can do do a google search for welsoft, mastercam x, Inventor 10, delcam art (which lets me digitize pictures and cut them out). Nothing like a picture of your car on a piece of billet as a paper weight. As you can see I'm not playing and am very serious about this business thing. I'm a school trained helicopter mechanic, airplane mechanic, and have two engineering degrees but most of all I'm a gearhead and enjoy building stuff the most so I'm opening my own shop and plan on making a desent living and not trying to get rich but be happy.

Also I thought I would show some pictures of the Galant. Hopefully soon will be the prowd owner of a GT35R and pull the TO4B off of it.

[IJ.]

Curtis: Thanks :)!

Here's mine that I retrofitted!

http://members.optushome.com.au/cougarmod/CNC40t.jpg (http://members.optushome.com.au/cougarmod/CNC40.jpg)

[DEFIANT 7M]

Curtis: Thanks :)!

Here's mine that I retrofitted!

http://members.optushome.com.au/cougarmod/CNC40t.jpg (http://members.optushome.com.au/cougarmod/CNC40.jpg)
Master Fabricators secrect weapons!!!:icon_bigg

[IJ.]

Allan: LOL My CNC thread was almost as big as my build thread here while I was doing the retrofit ;)!

I bought a brand new Bridgeport Clone and all the gear I needed then used my old manual Mill to convert the new one!

[Curtis]

Damn I wouldn't know how to act if I had a machine that big.

We had an old conventional mill that size at school I use to shave valve covers with for pocket money.

Hopefully I'll be able to work my way into a big machine so I can cut all aluminum 4G63 blocks for all my hommies and create cool toys like spherical valve heads.
The school I went to just got a new machine that was up close to a million after it was all said and done and they got the hook up deal. Its work envelope is like 6 ft by 5 ft by 9 ft high.

[IJ.]

I looked at a bunch of VMC's but couldn't justify 3 ton and 70K for a home machine ;)

No one in Australia brings my size machine in as a CNC so I had to build it myself and it's been a nice machine!

It will cut to 4 decimals but I don't really have any need to go that fine so keep to 3 :)

I only rarely use it for Car parts though.

Mine is 4 axis but I don't have the 4th axis installed as 99% of what I do is 2.5d work.

[DEFIANT 7M]

I just typed this big ol post and my funky DSL went down:cry: The journey is almost over::w00t:: This time next week this monster will be fully assembled and ready to drop in my car. Which will be the the following week!!! I can't take it anymore:aigo: The stock pile of custom one of a kind parts has to stop! We still need to fab the drysump pump mounts and get miles of braided line. Just odds and ends, I got boxes of shit everywhere it looks like I'm moving:biglaugh: There is no doubt it will make over 300rwhp and mid to low 12 runs without even arming the nitrous. We are going foward with what I have (trust me its a lot of shit). Anything more will have to be mods or upgrades, plus you are NEVER DONE! If you think you are your fooling yourself. A lot of you think I'm crazy and some of you just say why. I would not have done this if I had just kept my mouth shut! Shawndude if you are out there see what our keyboard war did!!!!:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

[DEFIANT 7M]

Just bought my dry sump oil tank:icon_bigg Gotta love Ebay!:icon_bigg
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170031333190&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/Photos/5galtank.jpg

[IJ.]

Allan: Where you mounting it?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan: Where you mounting it?
I'm strongly thinking about getting a shorter rad and mount it next to it.

[IJ.]

Narrower?

You might get away with cutting a hole down through where the battery tray sits?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Narrower?

You might get away with cutting a hole down through where the battery tray sits?
Yea, (narrower) seems to be the best idea. Going to search for something in the morning @ the junk yard. Like a small compact car rad. I see this clear a day in my head, wish I was good at that photo thing.

I looked at that area but the plenum for the ITBs will be right there.

[DEFIANT 7M]

DEFIANT 7M I've been watching this thread from the beginning. Its so cool to see things progress like this. I watched IJ's from the start too. I dont make many, if at all, comments on the thread. I'm very impressed with the work you've done. It's nice to see some guys from Tenn on here. I wish I could join in the games, but, that wont happen. When you get done. I would love to see this in person someday. If at anytime you will be passing through to GA or torwards NC let me know, when the project is done. I'm just outside Knoxville. As it stands now I dont trust my 86.5 stocker to much to drive a long distance. It's beginning its journey on the last leg of it life. I wont get rid of it. I'll have it rebuilt.
Anyway. Just saying you've done a fantastic job. You and a few others really impress me with your knowledge and abilities.


btw: IJ, you never emailed me the pictures of your head when you finished it. :naughty:

Hey thanks man that really makes feel good:icon_bigg and I will let you know when headed your way.

[JoeC]

CNC goes over my head - its one of those things that you think 'woooooow, coool.' and 'i wish i could do that/afford that' :D

learning CNC isn't very hard.. It's justifying the price to buy one! You can probably take a college course in cnc and learn basic master cam 2d/3d then move on to surfaces and just build your experience. Thats all you can really do.. A book only shows you so much =). I use to make gears daily in class out of foam and aluminum or brass.

[IJ.]

I had NEVER been hands on with a CNC before I did my retrofit and managed to make a part within 20 minutes of finishing it! :)

I think in my case not knowing that I can't do it that way saves me lots of time while I do it!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan; you should be able to fit that tank where the battery is supposed to go. Either that, or if you've got nothing on the complete opposite side, then put it there. Putting a smaller radiator isn't the best idea, especially a tiny honda-sized one...

I can't believe this build is almost ready to fire! I can't wait to see it..
Went to Pull-A-Part today to look at some different cars. I understand what your saying about a tiny honda radiator. But I did find several good canidates from the Volvo,BMW and Audi crowd. The thing is my oil tank is about 22" overall in length, basically the same height as our radiator. So making it fit without a bit of surgery and making it look good at the same time may be a pain in other places.

[DEFIANT 7M]

I agree, Allan. Now that I have full understanding of how large the tank is... yeah.... good luck is all i can really say... lol.
I've seen road race cars with the tank in the hatch. The constant flushing sound IJ spoke of may be one of those things you learn to live with. This thing holds 5 gallons of oil!!!:aigo: Here is a what a basic five stage dry sump system looks like to give you guys an idea of what I'm up against. There are still things I need to complete this set up right. If I can get this tank under the hood the main thing is I will not need 100 yrds of braided (KILL KILL THE WALLET) line.
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/Photos/5stgdia.jpg

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here are some pics of this GIGANTIC TANK!! next to my 4" muffler!! Then I broke it down so everyone can see the inside.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Can someone measure from the alt. pulley to the radiator for me?

[thedave925]

3 and a quarter inches to the accessory fan pair that go with the shroud,
5 and three eighths inches to the radiator itself.

[Figit090]

how about putting it where your battery is/was. relocate battery.... or put it on the other side where the charcoal canister is or reroute intake and stick it there. maybe you already figured it out...but you mentioned wondering about a place to stick it....

It's just a thought...i know nothing about dry sump...if that is what your tanks if for (i quickly read some stuff....sorry if i'm off here....lol)

[foreverpsycotic]

you always have the space next to the coolent tank inbetween the bumper and rad :)
you dont have an intercooler so that space is wasted

[DEFIANT 7M]

Those are good ideas. Thanks for the measurements. The battery side is pretty much taken up by the plenum for the ITBs and my little idea for fresh air intake from the hood:evil2: I could section out the area on the pass. side by the washer fluid. The nose area is kool but the tank would hang below the front skirt. Then the idea of weight 5 gallons of oil is heavy. The best place just might be in the hatch.:icon_conf :cry: :icon_conf

[IJ.]

Full Flush or half flush? ;)

[Tire Shredder]

Alana, just a suggestion for sound deadening if it needs to be in the car somewhere. Check out this product. http://www.quietcar.net/

it brushes, rolls or sprays on and can be done in multiple coats. perhaps spraying the whole container with a few layers of this stuff would cut down the noise of the thing significantly. Some rubber mounts to the body would cut down vibration, resonance aswell I am sure.

Check out the demonstration videos on their site...it looks like it could be very effective for what you want to do. It's easier to work with, gets into small cracks and works better than dynomat. weight would be negligable aswell.

Hope that helps and best of luck with your project!

[DEFIANT 7M]

The guys at the shop have had their hands full..Hats off to them!
http://www.revolutionaryperformance.com/engine%20masters.htm

[DEFIANT 7M]

Waz up guys... I'm still here. I've suffered a couple major setbacks. A custody battle with my ex-wife and a break in at my house:3d_frown: Both have killed my wallet and drained me mentally. The ex-wife stuff I'll leave it with that! The house FUCK ME RUNNING!!!!!! Close to $35,000.00 losted!!!!! Don't mention insurance please...Had to do some things to pay legal stuff..lets just say wrong time to rob Peter to pay Paul! Some jackass motherfucker hit me hard!! All my tools, most of my electronics (my brand new Sony 55" Wega:cry:) and more, half of my comic collection (old stuff) like Capt. America, Beast 30 plus year old comics! , $5000 @ wholesale MaryKay (my girls stuff) cosmetics. We are still finding stuff missing! We did catch this asshat I got my two vintage cameras my grandfather gave me back. That felt really good they mean a lot to me... The other stuff NOT!!!! Long story behind this fuckhead and not worth speaking. But lets just say he felt safe to come out of his house after five police cars pulled up!!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Custom piston from Diamond Racing. They have a 4cc dome, gas ported, short skirt. We had to send the head and the head gasket to them to make the pistons. They used the head too digitize the combustion chamber into the CNC. They need the head gasket to get the center line and some other specs. With the stroke the displacement is 3.5L ;) The HardBlok should cure the running hotter problem and also strengthen the block. I've watched them "rock" several circle track engines. By rights most of these engines should overheat with the type of cooling systems they have, but they don't.
Going back a little... here are pics of my block after being "rocked".

[DEFIANT 7M]

Making a bore plate from an old head.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Checking clearance...

[DEFIANT 7M]

OH SHIT:biglaugh: A little modification needed for the modification!!! Wonder if the gasket could fill that gap? Maybe two!!:biglaugh:

[DEFIANT 7M]

Going with stock rods. Putting in the ARP goodies and checking bolt(stud) stretch.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Going with stock rods. Putting in the ARP goodies and checking bolt(stud) stretch.
Picking the final six. Only the lightest ones can play...

[DEFIANT 7M]

:biglaugh:Can't reply to bump my old thread from the SM basement. So I'll try go from here. I bought wheels and tires for it today, so it official she runs this year! Still a lot of work left but it just putting back together now:icon_bigg It has been SEVEN years!! The engine has room for improvement, that's how I'm looking at it. Any other way it will never be finished. Shit...101mm stroke, 15:3 compression, dry sumped, ITBs, cams(small), extensive head work, 4.56 ring gear and more. Many countless hours testing, making, trashing and wondering why the hell did you do this!! An internet war with someone who has long since moved on!!:nono: The MONEY:cry:oh the MONEY:cry: Stay tuned the end is near!!:biglaugh:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46&highlight=101mm

[DEFIANT 7M]

Bought wheels and tires today. Wheels: DrifZs 506GMs front 18x8.5, rear 20x10, tires are Nitto Invos. The madness continues:biglaugh:

[MrWOT]

Just curious, but have you considered running a dry deck?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Well, I just read this whole thread again. Wow. I am, quite thoroughly, impressed. Glad to see you back on top now, and that you're close to done. Apparently, very close :)

By the way, would be interested in more detail about how using the old head for a bore plate worked out...

Using an old head for a bore plate worked great. I did not finish it Darryl did @ RPM. That was somewhat of a major deal, looking back making one from a solid piece of material would be easier.


Welcome back, I think I speak for all of us when I say... I can't wait to see the end result.

I need some NA inspiration!

Hey thanks man..When I started this there wasn't even a N/A section :biglaugh: Now look at us:icon_bigg

Just curious, but have you considered running a dry deck?

Funny...you are the first person to ask me! We started to do it but decided to "rock" the block instead. There is only a 2" deep water jacket now. The hottest part of the engine is the first 2" of cylinder bore during a combustion cycle. So by blocking or "rocking" the rest of the jacket. Not only does the cooling systems capacity and ability to cool the engine increase dramatically. The lower cylinder walls are strengthened "no flex", deflection what have you. Really good in my application since my piston speed will be....WOW! To say the least.:biglaugh:

Where's the videos??? I've been dying to see this engine rev for some time now. Congrats on getting it running though.

Just a few more things before we turn the key. One major deal!! I sold the Holley 950, now I looking for something too run this thing. Looking @ the new Megasquirt II. Any ideas, be easy the money tree got FEW twigs with green on it! Hell I want to make the first crank and run my ringtone!

I read all 38 pages and I can't wait to see the final or even updated product. This is one of two builds I'll be watching like a hawk.

Hey thanks, it's been a long time. I have a hard time driving other Supras since mine has been down.

[QUOTE=gnarkill87;894236]i think the only way this build could be anybetter is if you went alcohaul instead of gas!:evil2: but man props for doing this this thing will be well sick:aigo: and thats even an understatment.

:biglaugh: I am going alcohol...later! It is one of those rooms of improvement:naughty:

The bottom end was a challenge. We clearance what we thought was enough to find out it wasn't. The crank scrapper and girdle combo need a little modn' to get it to work. We used 7M head studs for main studs because the girdle is really thick! The wrist pins where cut wrong so we had to send them back and get them recut (two years later!!:biglaugh:) The dry sump pan would not fit with the girdle! This is just the bottom end....My head is just as crazy, with 2JZ shim/buckets, and 2JZ valves. Here are some old pics of the clearancing of the block that was not enough for the stroke!

[DEFIANT 7M]

This has to be my favorite pic! What does a stock piston/rod with a 101mm stroke look like @ TDC?:biglaugh:

[DEFIANT 7M]

Can't wait to see this up. I want to see the potential of our GE motors and I want to see which modifications you have done give the most gains without breaking the bank completely.

The blue print is set..it's easy now. We got cams now, cranks, pistons and a way to improve oil flow without a dry sump! Really big the MAF! I could do a few more things but why?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Hey Allan, would you like me to clean this thread up so it's easier to view for others?

BTW, you have a PM :D

That would be great:icon_bigg Then I can see what is missing...Kool

[Ma70.Ent]

Ok, done. I just cleaned out a shitload of posts (over 100 easily :D)

I deleted all posts that had something along the lines of "i want pics" "good work" and "keep it up". I tried to keep the questions so that people wondering about this good read them and have them answered.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Allan: Ever thought of getting a shorter timing belt and get rid of it altogether?

I did this with a 2 litre Astron I built for the balance shafts just had to plug the oil holes.
(Looks brilliant so far can't wait to hear it run)

IJ, we are doing this. We are using a freeze plug to close of the hole. Thanks...:icon_bigg

[DEFIANT 7M]

Ok, done. I just cleaned out a shitload of posts (over 100 easily :D)

I deleted all posts that had something along the lines of "i want pics" "good work" and "keep it up". I tried to keep the questions so that people wondering about this good read them and have them answered.

Thanks man this is great:icon_bigg

[MrWOT]

So did you weld up the head and shape it? Or still trying to work with the stock ports and chambers? Looks like someone took a spoon to the bottom end. Don't mean to be a "asking for pics guy" but I want to see the head and pistons too ;)

[DEFIANT 7M]

I've done a lot of things with this engine I really didn't understand, until sometime later. This is one of those things.
We machined the shim bucket (some call them lifters) bores to accept the 2000 and up Toyota Echo shimless bucket. Why??? The cams have such a radical lift they will "spit" the shims out. Or knock them right off the top of the buckets. Machined the bores? The stock 7M buckets are 28mm in diameter, the Echo buckets are 32mm. The cost is about $12.00 per bucket and they come in a range of sizes too match cam lash. I got lucky and had a 2JZ N/A given to me that thru a rod. We stripped the engine and Daryle walks over to my 7M head and says look these buckets fit! Well that was money saved to say the least. At the time the main concern was stoping the "shim spit" problem. Daryle said there was another plus to this mod. It follows the mod many BB Chevy guys do. By enlarging the lifter bore size using BB Chrysler lifters in BB Chevys. The larger bore will change the ramp rates, overall cam duration, and maximum lift numbers. Which will change the dynamics of my cams...too the good ;) I was wondering why he had me get the cams I did, know I understand. I will pick up more duration @ say .020 vs a cam of a similar spec @ .050. Not to mention the increase in lift. I guess you can say the cams will have more leverage to open the valves quicker and a bit longer. Here are a few pics of the Echo buckets.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=630110

My villagephotos account has been gone a long time ago. Here are the pics. The first pic is the Echo bucket, which would be a low cost weight reduction in the valvetrain for a 2J.

[DEFIANT 7M]

So did you weld up the head and shape it? Or still trying to work with the stock ports and chambers? Looks like someone took a spoon to the bottom end. Don't mean to be a "asking for pics guy" but I want to see the head and pistons too ;)

The pistons are on page three. I don't have good pics of the head, this is on purpose. Daryle spent over 50hrs porting and flowing each cylinder. The flow numbers are +-2cfm of each other.

[DEFIANT 7M]

The crank:icon_bigg

[DEFIANT 7M]

Here is my front tire:naughty:

[MrWOT]

2618 eh, probably a good idea for that kind of compression. I am a little surprised at a few things, who designed them? I'd really like to take a look at the ports and a better look at the throat area but I understand why, looks like the valve guides were ground all the way to the port roof? Can't wait to see it run :D

[madsupra88]

why didnt you go with a big lift cam? last time i checked ur were trying to get a cam in the .500 lift...

[DEFIANT 7M]

2618 eh, probably a good idea for that kind of compression. I am a little surprised at a few things, who designed them? I'd really like to take a look at the ports and a better look at the throat area but I understand why, looks like the valve guides were ground all the way to the port roof? Can't wait to see it run :D

The head was sent to Diamond. They digitized each chamber and then collaborated with my builder to make pistons a that would suit my application (high comp/nitrous). Yes the guides are ground to the port roof. The pics are the very first and only pics! There has been major changes let me say that.

[DEFIANT 7M]

why didnt you go with a big lift cam? last time i checked ur were trying to get a cam in the .500 lift...

:icon_bigg I have two different grinds.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Got my rear tires and front wheels today:love: I have a pic of the front and rear tires side by side also.

[madsupra88]

:icon_bigg I have two different grinds.

so you have A big lift cam?? what kinda of lift

[Figit090]

This has to be my favorite pic! What does a stock piston/rod with a 101mm stroke look like @ TDC?:biglaugh:

HOLY CRAP!! I never knew how much different this was...if i did, i forgot! I didnt know what stock was, now i do! amazing..

that's a bore plate? I'm imagining you made a thick plate for the head to sit on? totally newb guess there... but i can't think of any other way for that kind of stroke clearing the head. if i'm right, do you have to use two headgaskets now?

awesome work bud i can't wait to see videos and such! nice rim choice too! you fronts are bigger than all my tires :( lol.

i forgot, do you have a HP estimate on this build?

[gofastgeorge]

Well, I made it through this whole thread........

Can you get more of the flanges to do the RB throttle conversion?
Can you get them out of aluminum, say .375"-.500" thick ?
I have the RB throttles, and would love to do this.

What did the dry sump pan cost you ?

Also,
You may want to re-think running the cut-off oil pump drive shaft.
The timing belt induces a considerable amount of side load on that pulley/shaft.
Without the rear bearing to hold the shaft in alienment, it will cock the shaft off to one side at an angle.
I doubt if the plain bearing will survive very long.
I would guess just minutes.....

Just a thought......

Cool build !

[DEFIANT 7M]

so you have A big lift cam?? what kinda of lift Yes...(.450)



HOLY CRAP!! I never knew how much different this was...if i did, i forgot! I didnt know what stock was, now i do! amazing..

that's a bore plate? I'm imagining you made a thick plate for the head to sit on? totally newb guess there... but i can't think of any other way for that kind of stroke clearing the head. if i'm right, do you have to use two headgaskets now?

awesome work bud i can't wait to see videos and such! nice rim choice too! you fronts are bigger than all my tires :( lol.

i forgot, do you have a HP estimate on this build?

Thanks man...:icon_bigg The bore plate is only used for machining only. Oh I got you...No the pic is a stock piston and rod on the stroker crank. My pistons have a different wrist pin height. Which makes them drop to factory deck height.

Well, I made it through this whole thread........

Can you get more of the flanges to do the RB throttle conversion?
Can you get them out of aluminum, say .375"-.500" thick ?
I have the RB throttles, and would love to do this.

What did the dry sump pan cost you ?

Also,
You may want to re-think running the cut-off oil pump drive shaft.
The timing belt induces a considerable amount of side load on that pulley/shaft.
Without the rear bearing to hold the shaft in alienment, it will cock the shaft off to one side at an angle.
I doubt if the plain bearing will survive very long.
I would guess just minutes.....

Just a thought......

Cool build !

I may be able to. I got everything from Arnout..he may get on from time to time. He is in Finland. I am working trying to have a casting made. My pan was $250 or so if I remember right. We plan on using a shorter timing belt that would eliminate the oil pump drive shaft all together.

[DEFIANT 7M]

HOLY CRAP!! I never knew how much different this was...if i did, i forgot! I didnt know what stock was, now i do! amazing..

that's a bore plate? I'm imagining you made a thick plate for the head to sit on? totally newb guess there... but i can't think of any other way for that kind of stroke clearing the head. if i'm right, do you have to use two headgaskets now?



i forgot, do you have a HP estimate on this build?

See the difference in the piston pin height.

The goal is three hundred......shop talk is 385-420ish without the nitrous.

[madsupra88]

Yes...(.450).

did you have to clearance the head alot ? u think i can get away with .400 without clearancing ?

[DEFIANT 7M]

did you have to clearance the head alot ? u think i can get away with .400 without clearancing ?

I decieded to use the small cams first. But I will have to clearance the head for my big cams. I doubt you can get away without clearancing.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Some shinny stuff.

[Figit090]

See the difference in the piston pin height.

The goal is three hundred......shop talk is 385-420ish without the nitrous.

ahh, i seee. thanks. I thought that 'test fit' was the actual setup and i was like...what the hell? :aigo: lol.

I wonder if it would work to have a plate to raise the head off the block, with a plate and two gaskets, or one thick gasket, a few cm's thick... :p

OMG nice shiny stuff! your engine is going to be the best GE ever!! how pricey is that plating?

[DEFIANT 7M]

ahh, i seee. thanks. I thought that 'test fit' was the actual setup and i was like...what the hell? :aigo: lol.

I wonder if it would work to have a plate to raise the head off the block, with a plate and two gaskets, or one thick gasket, a few cm's thick... :p

OMG nice shiny stuff! your engine is going to be the best GE ever!!

Actually some high comp big stroke Hondas due weld a plate to the deck!

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showarticle.asp?ArticleID=20

[MrWOT]

Actually some high comp big stroke Hondas due weld a plate to the deck!

Yeah, no getting around the piston outrunning the flame with a low R/S at high rpm. Usually they are brazed, and as long as you can source the correct sleeves and custom rods, and have the hood space, it's great for race engines. I've seen folks hit 2:1 with a good deck plate :evil2:

[Figit090]

thats interesting...lol.

what goes in the deck plate though? i mean, those aren't cylinder walls because there is no water jacket, soo...uh. thats weird. maybe a set of sleeves that goes down in the welded-on deckplate? more views would help but i dont want to get too off-topic.

[Tire Shredder]

alan, any pics of your drysump setup? where did you mount the tank?

[DEFIANT 7M]

alan, any pics of your drysump setup? where did you mount the tank?
Not yet, I had to buy a smaller tank. The 5 gallon tank is just a monster and ridiculously heavy full.

[cuel]

Do your pistons have 3 compression rings? Might just be the pics., but it looks like there's three grooves for comp. rings, and one oil ring groove. Curious, as I haven't seen a piston with a ring set-up like that before.

[MrWOT]

The groove between the first and second compression ring is to catch blow by to prevent the rings from unseating

[cuel]

Ahh, thanks.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Got the rear wheels today:crazy1: WOW.... they have a 3 1/2" (flat area) lip.
You would think they weighed a lot being 20" wheels. They are 29lbs!

[Saavedro88]

Are those BBS? Which ones? Gunmetal?

This whole thread is very awe inspiring. Thanks Defiant!!

[DEFIANT 7M]

Are those BBS? Which ones? Gunmetal?

This whole thread is very awe inspiring. Thanks Defiant!!

Thanks man....:icon_bigg No they are DrifZs 506GM Venoms, yes they are gunmetal. Very nice wheels, I'm pleased.. Mounted a rear tire today, I'll get pics of one on the car soon. The wheel and tire very by a pound, tipped the scale @ 59 lbs.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Early pics of my radiator. The welding will be done this week or so for the water pump mounting plate, AN fittings, and brackets.
http://www.meziere.com/ps-1176-1144-wp362.aspx

[DEFIANT 7M]

Went to my friends shop to test fit the rear wheel on a MKIII. This is a stock height car. Plus I have plenty of clearance between the wheel and the strut. A lowered MKIII (mine) I will need to roll the fenders. No big deal. The sawblad has a factory size tire on it.

[DEFIANT 7M]

A few more.

[Figit090]

very nice rims. :) However...with that guy's ride height they make me giggle :)

[DEFIANT 7M]

I just spent several hours reading and searching for fuel system ideas. Yesterday @ Erin's shop we talked about fuel and what I planned on using to control this creation of mine. There is a gamete of stuff out there:aigo: We came to TEC3 or the new TEC GT (a scaled down version of the TEC3). What fuel C16, but that is $9.00 bucks a gallon. Okay E85 or E99(?), need a lot of pump for the "E" stuff. But it can tame the detonation monster lurking in my 15:3 cylinder walls. So the "E" fuel it is! What pump??? I like this idea
http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm
The intank pump will be a 255 Walbro, the "big" pump will be a Bosch 044. Injector size is still up for grabs?

[AJ'S 88NA]

I just spent several hours reading and searching for fuel system ideas. Yesterday @ Erin's shop we talked about fuel and what I planned on using to control this creation of mine. There is a gamete of stuff out there:aigo: We came to TEC3 or the new TEC GT (a scaled down version of the TEC3). What fuel C16, but that is $9.00 bucks a gallon. Okay E85 or E99(?), need a lot of pump for the "E" stuff. But it can tame the detonation monster lurking in my 15:3 cylinder walls. So the "E" fuel it is! What pump??? I like this idea
http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm
The intank pump will be a 255 Walbro, the "big" pump will be a Bosch 044. Injector size is still up for grabs?

I have 550's and the 255 for a pump. It's more than enough with the extra stroke and 60 over pistons 10.5 comp.

[DEFIANT 7M]

I have 550's and the 255 for a pump. It's more than enough with the extra stroke and 60 over pistons 10.5 comp.
Are you on pump gas or ethanol or something else? The ethanol seems to require a lot of fuel. You know I hear you, but it's that extra 5 points of comp. that makes this crazy. Your set up was my original idea to do but then the question was..Are you trying to blow you car up!?

[cuel]

If I remember correctly, the E-85 is kinda corrosive, and you have to have special coated fuel lines. Not positive, so you might check into that, just to be sure...

[AJ'S 88NA]

Are you on pump gas or ethanol or something else? The ethanol seems to require a lot of fuel. You know I hear you, but it's that extra 5 points of comp. that makes this crazy. Your set up was my original idea to do but then the question was..Are you trying to blow you car up!?

Just pump gas, why I only went 10.5. Yeah another 5 points comp. is a lot.

[DEFIANT 7M]

If I remember correctly, the E-85 is kinda corrosive, and you have to have special coated fuel lines. Not positive, so you might check into that, just to be sure...
Your right....

Just pump gas, why I only went 10.5. Yeah another 5 points comp. is a lot.

Gotcha, what's your power output? Did you go with any cams or headwork?

[DEFIANT 7M]

You know I am going to hit this thing with a least a 200 shot too. So I have to have plenty of fuel. Or she will go straight to hell fast.

[AJ'S 88NA]

Your right....



Gotcha, what's your power output? Did you go with any cams or headwork?

Cams and headwork, stage I port job, oversize valves, springs

[DEFIANT 7M]

Cams and headwork, stage I port job, oversize valves, springs
Kool....I got to catch up to you guys. How far are you from Nashville? We are going to thrash on this thing soon.

[AJ'S 88NA]

Kool....I got to catch up to you guys. How far are you from Nashville? We are going to thrash on this thing soon.

Couple of hours, I'm about 30 min. south of Cookville.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Something old to some new to others...

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17879

Any thoughts?

[DEFIANT 7M]

Some bottom pics. Notice the "ARP head studs" we had to use because the girdle is very thick. Not good shots but a few of the clearance areas. Notice how deep the piston is drawn down in the cylinder.

[DEFIANT 7M]

A few more. We also polished the piston tops.

[Ma70.Ent]

I wonder when this will finally finish. It's lookin good.

[DEFIANT 7M]

I wonder when this will finally finish. It's lookin good.

Very soon my friend, very soon:icon_bigg

[DEFIANT 7M]

Some good reading.
http://kb-silvolite.com/article.php?action=read&A_id=36

[suprarx7nut]

Holy crap, I'm excited to see video of this monster!!!

I hope the assembly all goes smoothly and we(supramania) get to see this BEAST up and running soon. :)

[AJ'S 88NA]

Some good reading.
http://kb-silvolite.com/article.php?action=read&A_id=36

Nice find and very good reading.

[corylee316]

I've been following this build for awhile cause I plan to stay N/A, but you have some resilliance. Three years in the making and I would be in the federal pen by now. Thanks for keeping our N/A dreams alive this long.

[DEFIANT 7M]

I've been following this build for awhile cause I plan to stay N/A, but you have some resilliance. Three years in the making and I would be in the federal pen by now. Thanks for keeping our N/A dreams alive this long.
Thanks man:icon_bigg People like you are the reason why I don't give up!

[Midnight Dorifuta]

I hate to be the bringer of thread necromancy, but I've had my eyes on this build since the thread was first posted. Defiant, what became of the build? I don't own an NA any more but It would still be really sweet to know just how much a 7M-GE can really pull.

Please check back in and let us know, aye?