200RWHP

[lil_dcb7]

So... I've been thinking... I've owned my NA 87 MK3 for a solid two years... and Im wanting more power.

I know the easiest route would be to do a 7MGTE swap, but my dads a Nazi, and wont let me (i just barely hit 18, and due to california smog.. he wont help me swap it in... :aigo: )

so i've been thinking... the 7MGE is rated at 210 at the crank? whats that RWHP..? 150?

I want around 220 RWHP, 200 at the least. And I've been doing research, I just want to hear some opinions on what steps I can take.

Im not too sure about milling my head wafer thin, and custom high-comp pistons sound expensive...

so what can I do...? Cams? Tuning? 2.5" exhaust? (i currently have 2.25" magnaflow catback)

my car is completely stock. I mean, all I have is a filter cone, and a mandrel bent 2.25" exhaust. I mean, I dont even have a MHG, just a toyota OEM HG and 20 year old head bolts (im pretty sure my 7M would have blown another HG, if it didnt throw its rod first)

thanks everyone for their input!

[Ma70.Ent]

#1. Stock is 200 HP. If the drivetrain loss is 15%, then the power to the wheels would be 165 RWHP. If it was 25%, it would be 150 RWHP. It depends if you're using a manual or automatic transmission, but even then, the whole 15% or 25% figures are just guesses as to how much power the car loses and even then, there are theories which say that even the whoel concept of it is incorrect and that there is no way cars with low horsepower such as our N/As could lose the same amount as a car with 1000 horsepower, etc. but we'll leave that for another day :)

#2. 200+ RWHP = too much work for an N/A. Just go turbo. An Intake/Header/Exhaust setup won't net you THAT much power. To get over 200 RWHP, expect to do some major work. The stock design of the 7MGE is already good....other than the catback exhaust.

#3. Next time read the stickied thread that says "N/A Upgrade FAQ" or use the search button (which is also in the N/A Upgrade FAQ at the bottom of the first post). I'm tired of having to say this...

[BlackMKIII]

I've been down this road in my 86.5. I'll tell you, RWHP was (for me at least) about 147 with intake, exhaust, and advanced timing. The best thing for you right now is to just enjoy driving the car as is. Unless you a really dead set on having a 200 RWHP N/A, just leave it as it is.

Getting the 7M-GE to 200 is going to take quite a bit. Intake, full exhaust, porting and polishing, full balancing, higher compression (via pistons, not head shaving), fuel, etc. You could spend thousands of dollars building an N/A screamer, only to have your ass handed to you by a lightly modified (Intake and exhaust only) turbo Supra.

Don't waste you money, you'll thank me later.

[Ma70.Ent]

I've been down this road in my 86.5. I'll tell you, RWHP is about 147 with intake, exhaust, and advanced timing.

Don't say that like it's a fact...some guys have more beat up engines than others. I saw a guy with a 7MGE in an MK2 run 169 RWHP or something like that, and he only had intake/exhaust...maybe headers, I don't know, but either way, it's more than 147

[BlackMKIII]

Fix'd. ;)

[Ma70.Ent]

Haha, thanks. :)

[lil_dcb7]

I've been down this road in my 86.5. I'll tell you, RWHP was (for me at least) about 147 with intake, exhaust, and advanced timing. The best thing for you right now is to just enjoy driving the car as is. Unless you a really dead set on having a 200 RWHP N/A, just leave it as it is.

Getting the 7M-GE to 200 is going to take quite a bit. Intake, full exhaust, porting and polishing, full balancing, higher compression (via pistons, not head shaving), fuel, etc. You could spend thousands of dollars building an N/A screamer, only to have your ass handed to you by a lightly modified (Intake and exhaust only) turbo Supra.

Don't waste you money, you'll thank me later.


OT, but you named your car Natalya? thats friggin creepy, thats my girlfriends name!!

[BorHor]

Kyle dynoed like 136 HP on his old NA he did have like 163 TQ though. that was all to the wheels. All he had was a mental bent intake pipe.

[Big Wang Bandit]

140 hp and 163 torques

[Burntz]

god i cant even imagine how low my number is haha, i know my rings arnt the greatest, and exhaust is fubar'd atm.

this new hg, cleaned injectors and cleaned everything and i bet im like 135 haha

[lil_dcb7]

140 hp and 163 torques

thats a lot more torque than i expected! :naughty:

[AJ'S 88NA]

215 and 207 and growing

[SupraN/Asty]

Would be easier to turbo it and retard the timing. I wouldn't worry about changing over to the coil pack for now if you just want a little over 200. N/A->T. Just leave the distibutor in for a while untill you can swap harnesses, and get all the other turbo goodies.

[ValgeKotkas]

Nawssss!

[Doward]

Rebuild the 7M - 11:1 compression pistons, a set of Crower 272 cams, port/polish the head, and a 150shot of nitrous on top of that to make for fun times against turbos :D

[supradan22]

Do a basic rebuild maybe intake header and a catback and spray a nice wet shot,150 shot would be sweet on a NA. But you can always just look around for a cheap turbo car and get it smog ready.

[Tanya]

lawlz @ the n/a haters.

For those of you bagging on a 7M getting 200+rwhp, just think of the couple 5MGEs running around with 189whp. Food for thought huh?

Those of you running around with 130-140whp, something is very wrong with that. VERY. My previous 5M was 132hp stock and then got 144whp after my 2.25" exhaust upgrade. That's a 12whp gain from a "shitty 2.8 liter 12 valve head". Healthy 7MGEs should be running anywhere from 160-170 STOCK. 200rwhp shouldn't be that big of a deal, just make sure you're not starting with an already flogged out, beat down 7M. Pull that bitch out, rebuild it. Hell, even bore it over .020 for an extra kick in the pants. Get a CAI, 2.5" exhaust, header, advance the timing a couple degrees, get some adjustable cam gears and start fucking around with those.

[Ma70.Ent]

I'm not an N/A hater. You just need some good mods for it :D

[BlackMKIII]

I'm not hating on the N/A! Hell, I was N/A for a couple of years before I swapped in the 1JZ. I did quite well with just bolt ons. I'm just being realistic about it.

[ValgeKotkas]

After my rebuild, my N/A feels like a monster :)(compared to it's previous state atleast :D), though I only have ported head and ummm....restrictive Audi muffler...
This header and exhaust thing looks too expensive for what it is...

[cuel]

I was hoping you'd post AJ. Nice numbers.

My current motor build "should" run 200 hp. easily. Only using 9:1 cr pistons, as I plan on n/a -> t at a later point. 200 will be about 1/2 then :evil2:

A true, tuned tube exhaust header would be very advantageous. One that was built for optimium exhaust velocity, pulse, and scavenging effects. As far as I know, nobody offers anything of the sort, and it would have to be custom made.

A short ram CAI would also help, and making sure that the ACIS system is in good operating condition. There's a pretty good thread on the ACIS system around here somewhere, if you don't know or understand what it is.

A decent set of cams, and some porting and polishing in the head. Matching the ports to the intake and exhaust correctly will help as well.

There's a few more things you could do as well. Anything that can be done to a n/a v-8 to make power can be applied to the 7m as well.

VK: The OBX header is around $300, and I have around $200 in the rest of my exhaust. Most turbo cat backs go for right around the combined total.

[Rennat]

Does anybody have a dyno of before and after of some cams? I've been thinking of dropping some BC's into my 7M, but i would like to see how much power they made available.

[Ma70.Ent]

There's a thread on this first page that has a decent amount of info on the BC cams that you're thinking of buying. IIRC, the gains were around 15 RWHP?

[cuel]

Along with some timing issues....

[Ma70.Ent]

Heh, you might opt for cam regrinds, but then you'll probably have to use shims.

[crazysupra2JZ]

my and a buddy went up to Atlanta to pick up my 89 NA 5spd... well, i have a 97 Altima 5spd that he drove back for me while i drove my Supra. so we're at a red light back in our town... he's looking at me revving up my Altima. i look at him, the light turns green and we're off. i had him in first gear, then in second gear he started catching up to me, by the time i shifted into 3rd, he was ahead of me.

so, yeah... NA's are slow.. at most what i would do just to have some more fun until you can swap in a GTE motor. is buy header, exhaust and intake. just to give it a better deeper sound. all that's like what $600 if you search around for the best deals. maybe give it some better plugs and wires.

[Ma70.Ent]

Your signature says you have rod knock, which leads me to assume that your engine was crapping out on you when your old Altima beat you.

N/As aren't fast, but people don't give them any credit for anything

[Tanya]

I'm not hating on the N/A! Hell, I was N/A for a couple of years before I swapped in the 1JZ. I did quite well with just bolt ons. I'm just being realistic about it.


Uh, 147whp is NOT well at all though.


edit* and another HUGE problem with n/a mk3s are the weight. Beef up the motor and start throwing useless crap away if you want to run some good times with it. Otherwise, even 200rwhp is going to feel somewhat useless in those piggies.

[bmoss85]

my first car was an n/a and i was out running mustang gt's in it. i dont know what all had been done to it except for being bored .040" and a cat back exhuast. i out ran my buddies 96 mkiv n/a too. oh yeah, i also outran an all wheel drive turbo eclipse that was not stock, but it was from a roll.

[ValgeKotkas]

Maybe you have some good shifting skillz? :)

[Ma70.Ent]

my first car was an n/a and i was out running mustang gt's in it. i dont know what all had been done to it except for being bored .040" and a cat back exhuast. i out ran my buddies 96 mkiv n/a too. oh yeah, i also outran an all wheel drive turbo eclipse that was not stock, but it was from a roll.

Hehe, this is gonna cause a war. :D

[BlackMKIII]

Uh, 147whp is NOT well at all though.

That was with a K&N and 2.5" crush bent exhaust. I never got around to dynoing it with the OBX headers, CAI, and RS*R.

[bmoss85]

some mustang gts only had like 215 crank hp, si its not that much of a stretch for an mkii n/a to outrun one

[Tanya]

That was with a K&N and 2.5" crush bent exhaust. I never got around to dynoing it with the OBX headers, CAI, and RS*R.

That's still quite horrible considering I dyno'd at 144whp with my 5MGE that only had an exhaust. That means you were only putting out roughly 180hp at the crank.

[AJ'S 88NA]

I was hoping you'd post AJ. Nice numbers.


Thanks cuel. Very close to fine tuning the Maft-Pro hope to get to the dyno after the 1st of the year. There are still a few things I'd like to do before that but they can wait if need be, I'm anxious to see some numbers with the change to SD:naughty:

[StevO9389]

ask some of the guys on this board what their NA build COST to achive. you're a kid and i am willing to bet you are not made of money. a couple other people have said it already but a 75-100 wet shot is your cheapest and most effective way to get the 200+RWHP goal. used kits can be had for about $300 or less and new around $700. this way you can beat up on some unsuspecting cars at the track and retain its mild manners and when daily driving. does californa enforce emissions laws for cars 20+ years old? seriously, think about it. by all means build a motor but this way you can have some fun and time to save before that day comes.

[Rennat]

Yes, CA does inforce its smog laws.

At least where i live they do....
So yeah...

CA isnt FL...

And you know you cant just throw a nos kit onto an N/A...

[StevO9389]

yea i am aware that FL isnt the same as CA... the reason i asked about the emissions is because whatever pemanant mods the kid does will ultimately affect if that car passes or not. maybe you can clear up why you cant just throw a nitrous kit onto an na. if timing is an issue then an MSD box can be programmed to retard timing as necesssary. a guy here in Tampa threw a 100 shot on his NA and is running mid-high 14s untuned on street tires. sure it wont run the full potential without a tune and proper heat range/gapped plugs but thats given for any power adding mod.

[Fuzz420]

*Raises hand*

yes im a member of the low horsepower ge club 149hp and 163tq

200whp doesnt seem too far fetched, but it definetly wont be cheap. Its important that you have good foundation to start from or else you will be like some of us, with low numbers.

intake, headers,exaust, maftpro, mhg, and cams should get you there with out completely going broke

[Tanya]

The one thing I'd like to point out about the n/a vs turbo war, is that yes, you will be spending a fair amount of money to get less hp than you would going turbo, BUT you have a lot less to be concerned about breaking. No intercooler piping coming loose, no bad turbo seals, etc.

[AGlobalThreat]

and another HUGE problem with n/a mk3s are the weight. Beef up the motor and start throwing useless crap away if you want to run some good times with it. Otherwise, even 200rwhp is going to feel somewhat useless in those piggies.

If you can't raise the power, lower the weight. That's what I did. Also don't forget about the flywheel, driveshaft, and sawblades weigh 23-24 lbs.

DEFINITELY upgrade the exhaust, I LOVED my 3" on my NA. I went from a crush bent 2.5" to a catless mandrel straight 3" and it felt like a whole different car.


The stock design of the 7MGE is already good....other than the catback exhaust.


QFT. I did lots of other mods to my NA and none compared to my catlessback exhaust.

I also support the rebuild+nos idea :biglaugh: :naughty: :aigo:

[Ma70.Ent]

If you can't raise the power, lower the weight. That's what I did. Also don't forget about the flywheel, driveshaft, and sawblades weigh 23-24 lbs.

DEFINITELY upgrade the exhaust, I LOVED my 3" on my NA. I went from a crush bent 2.5" to a catless mandrel straight 3" and it felt like a whole different car.



QFT. I did lots of other mods to my NA and none compared to my catlessback exhaust.

I also support the rebuild+nos idea :biglaugh: :naughty: :aigo:

Hey! I've finally got a 3 inch exhaust. I hope to see a decent difference...(even if I am auto :P)

[suprarx7nut]

Will a catback on a stock N/A really make that much of a difference?

I thought it would be a very small difference, maybe 5 hp, but you guys talk like it makes more. I was thinking to see any difference I'd have to do a full new exhaust.... am I wrong?


P.S. I have an Apex'i, but its bone stock other than that.

[Ma70.Ent]

Will a catback on a stock N/A really make that much of a difference?

I thought it would be a very small difference, maybe 5 hp, but you guys talk like it makes more. I was thinking to see any difference I'd have to do a full new exhaust.... am I wrong?


P.S. I have an Apex'i, but its bone stock other than that.

The stock catback really sucks. See for yourself, hehe.

[suprarx7nut]

The stock catback really sucks. See for yourself, hehe.


I may have too... :evil2:

[CRE]

You've driven my car with a 2.5" catback with straight through muffler and no resonator.... how much difference do you think it made? :naughty:
















Seriously, I didn't notice too big of a difference going from the stock cat back to my current setup... Helps when revving a higher RPMs a decent amount. As you do more modifications you'll definitely find the stock system too restrictive though. It's not a massive change by itself, but it's one that's crucial for all the other mods to come.

[suprarx7nut]

You've driven my car with a 2.5" catback with straight through muffler and no resonator.... how much difference do you think it made? :naughty:


Seriously, I didn't notice too big of a difference going from the stock cat back to my current setup... Helps when revving a higher RPMs a decent amount. As you do more modifications you'll definitely find the stock system too restrictive though. It's not a massive change by itself, but it's one that's crucial for all the other mods to come.


Ya, I'm planning on it either way. Hell to me, just the audible difference is worth it. :)

If I could throw on a catback and have 1/2 the performance change you have CRE, I'd be a happy man. ....Unfortunately it'll take much, much more.

Maybe by the end of next summer I'll be able to give you a small glimpse of "competition". ;)

[CRE]

All you gotta do is stop holding back.... c'mon, my clutch is even slipping (granted it's not full time... yet... but still).

[AJ'S 88NA]

All you gotta do is stop holding back.... c'mon, my clutch is even slipping (granted it's not full time... yet... but still).
Slipping from all that extra power from the Maft-Pro I'll bet?

The stock cat back removal I agree with most as it dosen't make that much difference. But like you said it does make a difference with the other mods working better.

[OfnaRcR4]

With my old NA, i was able to net a 15.89. If i remember right that was just with exhaust.

[YourEnemy]

ok, I just skimmed through this thread but when I had my NA motor in this is what I had done to it

OBX headers
2.5 exhaust and no cat
MSD ign
ARP head bolts
Fresh HG
Intake including piping
plugs and wires
port and polished intake manifold
walbro fuel pump with J-tube delete
99% of the stock parts were replaced so the motor was pretty healthly
and I had a semi auto controller on the tranny
and maybe a few other small things, i cant fully remember, but having that I mangaged to beat a newer GT mustang by about half a car length and those are dyno'd right around 250RWHP, although you have to take the guys driving ability into prospective too

[queenskid926]

Honestly, i think my N/a is putting over 200rwhp. But everybody is right, it just cost too much money, and the only way that anyone would spend this much money is if they're dead set on having a screaming n/a or their too ignorant to go turbo. (Like my cousin did with this car)

I did not due all of these mods, he did, and he should me the receipts, he has more than 6 grand in engine work alone, with a rebuilt engine and all the other mods plus labor.... Due you kno after i spend the 1,500 to swap a gte in and i spent the other 4,500 on mods, How much rwhp a gte could possibly make for the same amount of money spent.

But yes i believe i have more than 200rwhp. But before i dyno the car i need to get a few things fixed, Car is running rich, and there is a small gap where my headers bolt up to the engine. And other miscellaneous things. Give me some time and ill see what this N/a can do

[labrat469]

IDK maybe I'm missing something here. 200RWHP doesn't seem to be as impossible as some of you are making it out to be. Alot of the mods people are using seem to be basic bolt-ons without putting any machine work into their motor. If you are going to be spending alot of money on mods put some of that money toward the machine work. Why waste the money on bolt-ons when you still have a stock block and head?

I just got done rebuilding my motor. Both the deck and head have been shaved and I'm using a 10/10 crank. My pistons at TDC are even with the top of head gasket. That should give you an idea of how much was taken off. And the head was shaved 20 because of warping. I can't advance or retard my timing in fear of crossbreeding pistons and valves. I've been told that I'm running at least 10.1:1. Stock compression ratio is 9.8:1 for NA's. I wish I had a way to figure out what my compression ratio is.

Honestly I don't think I've spent over 500 bucks in just machine work. This motor was built just to get the Supra on the road. I haven't started to build the race motor yet. It's sitting in storage waiting for me to get done rebuilding my 90 Acura Integra motor. Well I have to go to work and I think I got my basic point across. Get the machine work done first so your motor can use the bolt-on mods to their fullest potential.

Peace and engine grease.

[cuel]

Queenskid: If the motor was built with all forged internals, you could attempt the infamous n/a->T. Get all the necessary parts from someone parting out a turbo car, and bolt them on your motor. Just an idea. There are a lot of good and bad points to doing this, and it will take a good bit of fine tuning to get it running really well. Search around in the n/a->T threads, and you'll find a lot of information.

I also agree with labrat. With some good machining, porting and polishing, 200 hp. should be attainable. BUT, you should have a well thought out plan as to what your future goals are. Are you going to be satisfied with all motor performance, or are you going to want power-adders later(nitrous, turbo, supercharger, combination of all 3 :naughty: ), and build accordingly. Stock e.c.u., standalone, fuel system upgrades, etc. Really, the only limit will be how much time, money, and effort you are willing to spend.

[queenskid926]

Queenskid: If the motor was built with all forged internals, you could attempt the infamous n/a->T. Get all the necessary parts from someone parting out a turbo car, and bolt them on your motor. Just an idea. There are a lot of good and bad points to doing this, and it will take a good bit of fine tuning to get it running really well.

Nah my compression ratio is too high. Its cuttin close enuff to it with a stock ge compression ratio, Just like Labrat469, both my deck and head has been shaved. im sue my compression is around there too in 10:?:? range, Once i find a nice gte and have some money ill be selling this motor for anybody that wants to have a screaming n/a. Your already will be off to a good start...

[IJ.]

Honestly, i think my N/a is putting over 200rwhp. But everybody is right, it just cost too much money, and the only way that anyone would spend this much money is if they're dead set on having a screaming n/a or their too ignorant to go turbo. (Like my cousin did with this car)
Time to hit the dyno to see for sure. ;)

[queenskid926]

Time to hit the dyno to see for sure. ;)

I most definitely will once i get the car all cleaned up and straiten out. I should have it where i want it by the spring

[IJ.]

LOL do it now before it breaks ;)

[Fuzz420]

LOL do it now before it breaks ;)
:rofl: if only this werent true ;)

Ill be waiting on results, its been a while since we has some fresh n/a results

[labrat469]

I've seen too many people add on intakes, headers and exhausts and expect to achieve the same HP as the manufactures claim. read the fine print! Look at all they have done to the motor to achieve those numbers. You will be surprised. You have the potential of pumping more air in and out of your motor, BUT, you are limiting yourself by not doing the machine work to take advantage of the mods you've added on. Having all of those power adders won't matter if you have a restrictive head. Don't worry about the shiney air intake, powder coated header and stainless steel cat-back exhaust. Spend that money where it will do the most good.

Personally I don't want to deal with all of the headaches involved with going turbo.

[Nalleywhacker]

i have a turbo and a n/a. the turbo is stock exepct for exhaust, and my na is bored .30, ross racing pistons, colt cams, ported head,and headers intake and exhaust and the turbo is still faster! no by much but it pulls away from 3rd gear on. there is nothing wrong with the 7mge its a great motor it just toyota wasnt thinking when they put it in a 3600 pound car!

[Tanya]

I'm sure you meant .030 over and not .30, that's a big pet peeve of mine, lol.

Would like to see the dyno on your n/a though

[7Mboost]

Maybe you could fulfil my wonders and build a GE built for something like a 300 shot. :) serious.

[labrat469]

When comparing N/A vs Turbo let's not forget that turbo's have differrent transmissions and rearends. The turbo is geared for high speeds and open diffs vs LSD. I suppect if you put a mild built N/A into a turbo body it would be a different story.

[CRE]

The transmission gearing is almost identical but the R154 is quite a bit heavier. Also the taller end gear in the turbo won't help the GE at all in terms of acceleration... it'll only hurt it, but not by too much.

[queenskid926]

I just about to say the same thing Cre. Performance wise the taller end gear ratio will reduce a GE acceleration but will give a higher topspeed and better fuel economy on the highway.

[Nalleywhacker]

I'm sure you meant .030 over and not .30, that's a big pet peeve of mine, lol.

Would like to see the dyno on your n/a though

my bad .030 over. no dyno. i got one of those gtech things not sure how accurate they are but it said 183hp and 196tq.

[Tanya]

meh.

I don't know why people waste money on those things, rather than get ACCURATE results with a dyno. Someday when you have like $60 burning a hole in your pocket, you should dyno it. Too many sad n/a dynos (140whp, wtf?), we need some good ones.

[Nalleywhacker]

meh.

I don't know why people waste money on those things, rather than get ACCURATE results with a dyno. Someday when you have like $60 burning a hole in your pocket, you should dyno it. Too many sad n/a dynos (140whp, wtf?), we need some good ones.

yeah it was a gift so no complants lol but yeah dyno sessions around here are a little more than that at least 100 here but some day i will.

[CRE]

Comparing dyno results is practically worthless... too much deviation from one shop to the next and it only gets worse if the make of the dyno changes. Don't get me wrong, they're good for checking to see where you're at and if your work is paying off, but only if you're running on the same machine and they haven't changed software or correction factors between sessions.


EDIT: Okay, it's not worthless, but it's not completely accurate or reliable.

[AJ'S 88NA]

Comparing dyno results is practically worthless... too much deviation from one shop to the next and it only gets worse if the make of the dyno changes. Don't get me wrong, they're good for checking to see where you're at and if your work is paying off, but only if you're running on the same machine and they haven't changed software or correction factors between sessions.


EDIT: Okay, it's not worthless, but it's not completely accurate or reliable.
I aggree with going to the same dyno to check your progress. I guess the G-tec could serve the same purpose, not as accurate but maybe accurate enough to see any changes besides your "butt dyno":biglaugh:

[labrat469]

The transmission gearing is almost identical but the R154 is quite a bit heavier. Also the taller end gear in the turbo won't help the GE at all in terms of acceleration... it'll only hurt it, but not by too much.

Let's play with some ideas here. This might help other members in deciding on mods. You've stated the weight of the R154 being a problem. Which is heavier a GTE with the R154 or a GE with R154. You've already saved some weight by switching motors. Now let's shave some weight of the GE, get rid of the exhaust manifold for a header. Replacing the stock air intake system with a CAI or SRI. You mentioned acceleration. Replace the flywheel with a lighten flywheel and the clutch assembly with a stage 2 clutch assembly. Weight problem partially solved and the acceleration problem taken care of.


Theoretically we could build a N/A 200RWHP with minor machine work and a few mods. Things are only impossible after you given up trying. And when it comes to HP it's not how much money you've spent but how well you've spent your money. I'm off to work.

Peace and engine grease

[Tanya]

EDIT: Okay, it's not worthless, but it's not completely accurate or reliable.


Are you smoking dope? It's a fuck of a lot more accurate than a GTECH or guessing with your butt dyno. Come on now.

Trick is to go to the same dyno, which really isn't that hard. There really isn't a lot of deviation there. You also have to remember other conditions change also, temperature, humidity, etc which all have a bearing on the hp you make. Most dynos record this information so you can gather what you want from it.

[Ma70.Ent]

There are 1-2 good dynos, and here is one of them:


here is a link to one.
http://whyturbothat.com/na7mgedyno.html
87 supra 7mge. 162 whp. the guy says it had intake and exhaust and it smoked when it ran. He also states that his friends car put down 169 hp at the wheels.
someone make this a sticky?
so anyone else who has dynoed a NA 7m, put your numbers and mods here I guess.

WHP:
Mods:
Year motor:

That was posted in another OLD topic, by the way. I don't think he needed a reason to fake this, but yeah, be skeptical if you guys need to be :D

[CRE]

Are you smoking dope?
Nope and my drinking only really ever amounts to perhaps a beer every month or two.

Now that we've gotten my toxicological background out of the way, I didn't say I thought the GTech was any better, I agree that it's far less reliable. I was making the point that people posting their dyno results online and other people comparing theirs with them is hardly accurate. That's all. I agree it's the better of the two. But realistically and where accuracy is concerned, it's one of those things that's really only good for showing you and others the potential scope of change a given modification or adjustment can make. They all measure differently and calculate differently and (more often than not) report very different results.

So using someone's before and after #s when doing research is alright, but looking at someone else's dyno results and expecting that the same mods will gain you the same gains when you dyno is hopeful at best. If we were all running on the same physical unit it would be another story, but we're not, we're not even all running on the same make of dyno, no one is posting the software revision, all the correction factors, the ambient temp and humidity... bla, bla, bla.

You seemed too have missed my point concerning this topic, hopefully this clears it up.

[Tanya]

MY point is, where dynoing is concerned and comparisions are made, common sense has to be used. There are several types of dynos; Mustang Dynos, Dynojet Dynos, etc and they do read very differently. There are conversion factors for them though. Also people have to realize that a beat to hell 7MGE with I/H/E mods isn't going to read as well as a freshly rebuilt 7MGE with the same mods. Common sense. If people can't use it, they shouldn't be into this hobby in the first place.

[CRE]

MY point is, where dynoing is concerned and comparisions are made, common sense has to be used. There are several types of dynos; Mustang Dynos, Dynojet Dynos, etc and they do read very differently. There are conversion factors for them though. Also people have to realize that a beat to hell 7MGE with I/H/E mods isn't going to read as well as a freshly rebuilt 7MGE with the same mods. Common sense. If people can't use it, they shouldn't be into this hobby in the first place.

I agree, I just operate under the assumption that people aren't going to use common sense... something demonstrated all too often. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong, but merely clarify what I thought needed to be for all those special someones. :naughty:






Which is heavier a GTE with the R154 or a GE with R154.
Let's play this another way... which is lighter? GE + W58 or GE + R154


Replacing the stock air intake system with a CAI or SRI. You mentioned acceleration.
The stock airbox IS a cold air intake... have a close look. It's not terribly restrictive either. The only thing that kills the stock airbox ir using cheap, poorly flowing filters in it.

Now the VAF, that's another story... ;)


Replace the flywheel with a lighten flywheel and the clutch assembly with a stage 2 clutch assembly.
Lightweight flywheel will help reduce losses, doesn't actually make any more power but helps you see that a little more actually make it to the wheels.

Is a stage 2 clutch really any lighter? If not don't bother, You haven't done a thing yet to actually make more power... the stocker will work just fine.


Theoretically we could build a N/A 200RWHP with minor machine work and a few mods. Things are only impossible after you given up trying. And when it comes to HP it's not how much money you've spent but how well you've spent your money. I'm off to work.

Peace and engine grease
A couple other helpful things are: lighter wheels, one piece driveshaft, new gear oil in the transmission and diff., maintain proper tire pressure, get an alignment (even if it "feels fine"), replace the forward undercoverS (there are 3).

If you want to go overboard: new wheel bearings, check brake pad clearances when they're free, check the clearances of the parking brake pads when free.

Then, I'd probably start the mods with deleting the VAF... I hate that thing.

[Tanya]

Geez. If a 2.8 liter 5MGE can hit 189rwhp, then the 7M should have no problem. If you're really dedicated to building a strong n/a 7M start off with rebuilding it first and going from there. That's the best 'mod' you can do for it.

Hopefully in the coming months, I'll show you newbs how it's done ;)

[ValgeKotkas]

^ Word. After the build, my car's like a different animal. Okai, it got ported head, but still.

[Ma70.Ent]

Rebuilds are a good idea. Maybe I should add that to the FAQ.

[Ma70.Ent]

N/A is what keeps us richer then(or not as poor as) the turbo guys. Once you go turbo, you can't stop! (from what I hear)

[Tanya]

I'd rather have a lot less things to break on my car than if I were to go turbo. I have no time or patience to be worrying about tracking down boost leaks and various other issues.

[IJ.]

It won't be anything you guys would be interested in putting into your mk3s, but fun n/a power anyway :)
Tanya: For a Mk3 if it's less than 7.0L na I'm not interested ;)

[Ma70.Ent]

Haha. Imagine a super stroked N/A.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Haha. Imagine a super stroked N/A.
It's a lot of money and time. The second time is always easier.

[Tanya]

Haha. Imagine a super stroked N/A.


There was talk awhile back about making a stroked crank, not sure whatever happened to that. It was like a 97mm stroke IIRC. I calculated that a 97mm stroke with a 84.5mm bore would be a 3.3 liter engine, lol. But that bore is MAXING it out at .060", if you can even go that far.

[Ma70.Ent]

It's a lot of money and time. The second time is always easier.

Oh damn! Where have you been?!

[AJ'S 88NA]

There was talk awhile back about making a stroked crank, not sure whatever happened to that. It was like a 97mm stroke IIRC. I calculated that a 97mm stroke with a 84.5mm bore would be a 3.3 liter engine, lol. But that bore is MAXING it out at .060", if you can even go that far.Not just talk, my stroke is 97.5mm with +.060 10.5-1 pistons. You can go .060 over with the right block.

Defiant: You going to try to get that 101 running?

[labrat469]

I agree, I just operate under the assumption that people aren't going to use common sense... something demonstrated all too often. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong, but merely clarify what I thought needed to be for all those special someones. :naughty:






Let's play this another way... which is lighter? GE + W58 or GE + R154


The stock airbox IS a cold air intake... have a close look. It's not terribly restrictive either. The only thing that kills the stock airbox ir using cheap, poorly flowing filters in it.

Now the VAF, that's another story... ;)


Lightweight flywheel will help reduce losses, doesn't actually make any more power but helps you see that a little more actually make it to the wheels.

Is a stage 2 clutch really any lighter? If not don't bother, You haven't done a thing yet to actually make more power... the stocker will work just fine.


A couple other helpful things are: lighter wheels, one piece driveshaft, new gear oil in the transmission and diff., maintain proper tire pressure, get an alignment (even if it "feels fine"), replace the forward undercoverS (there are 3).

If you want to go overboard: new wheel bearings, check brake pad clearances when they're free, check the clearances of the parking brake pads when free.

Then, I'd probably start the mods with deleting the VAF... I hate that thing.

First and foremost I should warn you that I have a really bad chest cold and I'm on some good OTC drugs so before warned. This reply was brought to you by NyQuil, the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, fever, best sleep you ever got with a cold because you woke up and found your ass on the bathroom floor medicine.

The stage 2 clutch wasn't a weight saver but to combat drivetrain loss. A lighten flywheel and stage 2 clutch will allow you to transfer more torque to the rear wheels making for better acceleration. I think we agree on that point.

A one piece driveshaft is asking for trouble when you take in consideration the rear suspension travel. One pieces are restricted in movement and can cause more trouble than it's worth. As for a lighten drive shafts I wish I still had mine from my 1974 AMC Javelin. The motor-trans combo had enough power to twist the shaft and turn the rear diff into a grenade.

But with any motor swap, take the cost of the motor and double that for rebuild kits and parts. The best mod for any used motor swap is a complete rebuild. I would still rebuild the motor even if I just pulled the motor out of the car and I saw it run. It's the hidden problems that come back and bite you in your ass and take your wallet with it.

Let's not go overboard with the mods even though a brake and suspension check would be in order for safety sake. I agree the a GE with a w58 would be lighter but not geared as high as a R154.

But to put this thread back on subject we will go with a W58. What could be done to make a 7MGE put 200 to the wheels. I would start off with getting the head checked then machined. PNP and shaved either .020 or .030. Put in some 264@.50 cams with Comp Cams SBC inner springs and adjustable cam gears. A metal HG with ARP bolts. An intake with a K&N filter. And probably a custom header.

Now for the bottom end. Naturally have it checked out for warping, cracks, and other defects. Punch it out .030 over with 10:1 pistons, forged rods, stroked .010/.010 crank, lighten flywheel, stage2 or higher clutch. I know I'm forgetting some things but the NyQuil is making me sleepy...

Damn! 10% alcohol in this stuff.... sorry A.D.D. moment. With this dose I'm outta here.

Peace and Engine Grease

[bmoss85]

heres a stoker kit for the 7m

http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/strokerkits_toyota2.html

[Ma70.Ent]

There are some problems associated with that stroker kit. I think figgie/adjuster/IJ know, so you should send them a PM if you're going to use it.

[labrat469]

There are some problems associated with that stroker kit. I think figgie/adjuster/IJ know, so you should send them a PM if you're going to use it.

I'ver read the article on another forum about the piston speed. That's why I went with a mild .010/.010 stroked crank. The crank in my motor is the lighter 6M crank. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

When modifying a motor you decrease the longevity and reliability of the motor. Toyota spent years designing and building the 7M and we in the matter of hours throw all their R&D right out the window. Modifying motors comes down to two words. Acceptable risks. How far are we willing to go to risk engine life and reliabiliy for the sake of HP.

[queenskid926]

Modifying motors comes down to two words. Acceptable risks. How far are we willing to go to risk engine life and reliabiliy for the sake of HP.

You couldn't have said it better

[Ma70.Ent]

I'ver read the article on another forum about the piston speed. That's why I went with a mild .010/.010 stroked crank. The crank in my motor is the lighter 6M crank. It's a risk I'm willing to take.

When modifying a motor you decrease the longevity and reliability of the motor. Toyota spent years designing and building the 7M and we in the matter of hours throw all their R&D right out the window. Modifying motors comes down to two words. Acceptable risks. How far are we willing to go to risk engine life and reliabiliy for the sake of HP.

Here are some posts that'll help others from SF. The thread is this: http://supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=470952


Well, after running the "Stroker" as delivered from Flatlander for about 350 miles, it crapped out, and I ended up re-building it again. (Combination of a soft set of pin bushings, and Flatlander's total screw up on ordering the parts, and then not owning up to their screw up's...)

So, with the crank re-worked again, and the journals hard chromed and then ground true, and Pauter using hard bronze pin inserts, the motor has now held up to some regular abuse and use with not too many problems.

If I was going to do it all over again? I'd either just do something simple like convert this car to a LS3 based V8 with twins and standalone ECU, or get lighter pistons from JE, still do the coatings, and the oil system and all the other mods since the 7M Stroker motor is really fun to drive on the street, and make's silly amounts of tourqe on a mid sized turbo. (Spell that tire smoke at will in the lower 3 gears.)


Hey Anthony!

No need to. I am here also Sorry about the delayed response I don't come on here to much.

This is just my experience with them.

I had no issues at all with them (Import Performance = Flat Lander Racing). Adjuster on the other hand did have issues with them. Though the difference between me and adjuster, IP did the complete short block for me, Adjuster got the parts sent out for coating and then back to adjuster and then sent to his engine builder. Though IP did double charge him (CC).

There was one issue that thankfully I caught and advised adjuster on and that was that with the stroker kit using the Pauter rods, the Oil pump drive shaft HAS to be machined smaller to make room for the pauters spinning.

With that out of the way.

The Stroker kit is good but it is also worthless (contradictory I know)

Unless you are doing a full blown stand alone with Traction control (and by traction control I mean individual wheel speed like A MoTeC not the AEM). The stroker motor alone with the new stroke becomes a smoke show for the first THREE gears at ANY speed. Traction control is a MUST unless you think that smoking them uncontrollably at 65 mph is a good thing and believe me it is not.


^ Oil pump shaft needs to be machined even at stock stroke if you're going to rev it hard with Pauters


Yep I was getting some weird chatter marks on #1 and #2 crankpins and finally traced it to deflection above 8000 was letting the rods just touch the shaft!

I also machine the old mechanical fuel pump cam off the shaft in case that was making it whip.


how much did you take off the oil pump shaft?


From memory it was 1.5mm off the diameter.

There we go. That's the good info from that thread.

[cuel]

FA one piece driveshaft is asking for trouble when you take in consideration the rear suspension travel. One pieces are restricted in movement and can cause more trouble than it's worth. As for a lighten drive shafts I wish I still had mine from my 1974 AMC Javelin. The motor-trans combo had enough power to twist the shaft and turn the rear diff into a grenade.



Peace and Engine Grease

The diff in the Supra doesn't move. Its bolted directly to the subframe, which is bolted to the body. Full four wheel independent suspension.

That being said, there are both pro's and con's to the one piece d.s. Pinion angle would be something to consider(I've checked it, it's pretty straight). There is a vendor here, however, who is offering a lightened two piece drive shaft now(There's two threads on it in the general forums section). Personally, I have a D.S.S. one piece, and like it. I think it could go 1/2" further into the trans., but it's still a good fit. The most important thing I would tell people is to use new lockwashers, and lock-tite the nuts and bolts.

[Tanya]

Some good info in here concerning the stroker crank, thanks guys :)

[iwannadie]

I love anti-na people, yes going turbo is a more cost effective to get power. Guess what, the supra isnt the most cost effective car to be getting power out of to begin with.

Some people just want na for whatever reason or the other just as people choose the supra over some other car.

...I plan on going turbo though ha, only after the rest of the car is setup to handle the power though.

[queenskid926]

I love anti-na people, yes going turbo is a more cost effective to get power. Guess what, the supra isnt the most cost effective car to be getting power out of to begin with.

Yea majority of my cost has been going towards maintenance and not performance

[labrat469]

Yes! Somebody finally brought up the reason why I don't go turbo.

Maintenance Cost

It doesn't matter how much power you put out either forced induction or NA if your car is always in the shop. Going turbo or using nitrous or high compression is the quickest way to find the weakest link in a motor. Time and time again I see people in such a rush to make alot of power they don't think about the stress that they are putting on the motor. What risks are you willing to take to achieve your goal. And are the risks worth the time and money you are going to spend maintaining the motor you've built.

Going turbo is NOT the cheapest way to make power when you add build costs and maintenance costs. Basically put Horse Power Costs. Not only in part costs but in maintenance costs. The more you do to a motor the more that can go wrong. Seriously now, go read the turbo forum and see what goes wrong on their cars and the problems they have maintaining their cars. Yes, the NA cars have their problems but not as many as the turbo cars.

The cheapest way to make power is the "fast gas"; Nitrous. For less than the cost of a GTE you could drop in a nitrous sysem and still make more power than a stock GTE. Some people consider using nitrous as cheating because it's temporary horse power. But as my friend says Nitrous is like a hot woman with a STD you know you want to hit it but you're afraid of the consequences. Does the means out weigh the risks.

Peace and Engine Grease

[AJ'S 88NA]

I have a IPP stroker kit. It came with Chevy Eagle H beam rods, all balanced with Wesico pistons. So far no problems to 7k rpm concerning the Kit.

[queenskid926]

I have a IPP stroker kit. It came with Chevy Eagle H beam rods, all balanced with Wesico pistons. So far no problems to 7k rpm concerning the Kit.
You ever your beast on a dyno? What numbers are you making? I just glanced at your set-up and i kno your ge is making more than 200rwhp.

[AGlobalThreat]

Yes! Somebody finally brought up the reason why I don't go turbo.

Maintenance Cost

It doesn't matter how much power you put out either forced induction or NA if your car is always in the shop. Going turbo or using nitrous or high compression is the quickest way to find the weakest link in a motor. Time and time again I see people in such a rush to make alot of power they don't think about the stress that they are putting on the motor. What risks are you willing to take to achieve your goal. And are the risks worth the time and money you are going to spend maintaining the motor you've built.

Going turbo is NOT the cheapest way to make power when you add build costs and maintenance costs. Basically put Horse Power Costs. Not only in part costs but in maintenance costs. The more you do to a motor the more that can go wrong. Seriously now, go read the turbo forum and see what goes wrong on their cars and the problems they have maintaining their cars. Yes, the NA cars have their problems but not as many as the turbo cars.


My 1jz is way more reliable than my na ever was.

[AJ'S 88NA]

You ever your beast on a dyno? What numbers are you making? I just glanced at your set-up and i kno your ge is making more than 200rwhp.

Yes they are posted towards the begining of the thread, 215 and 207. I'll be posting some new numbers soon.

[IJ.]

Look at AJ's mods if you have less than him you have less than 215rwhp ;)
(it's NOT as easy as some are making out as the 7M is fairly highly tuned to begin with)

[DEFIANT 7M]

Oh damn! Where have you been?!

Working and watching my kids grow.




Not just talk, my stroke is 97.5mm with +.060 10.5-1 pistons. You can go .060 over with the right block.

Defiant: You going to try to get that 101 running?

Oh yea:icon_bigg

[AJ'S 88NA]

Working and watching my kids grow.





Oh yea:icon_bigg

I'm only a couple hours away from Nashville:naughty:

[MrTwinTurbo1988]

So... I've been thinking... I've owned my NA 87 MK3 for a solid two years... and Im wanting more power.

I know the easiest route would be to do a 7MGTE swap, but my dads a Nazi, and wont let me (i just barely hit 18, and due to california smog.. he wont help me swap it in... :aigo: )

so i've been thinking... the 7MGE is rated at 210 at the crank? whats that RWHP..? 150?

I want around 220 RWHP, 200 at the least. And I've been doing research, I just want to hear some opinions on what steps I can take.

Im not too sure about milling my head wafer thin, and custom high-comp pistons sound expensive...

so what can I do...? Cams? Tuning? 2.5" exhaust? (i currently have 2.25" magnaflow catback)

my car is completely stock. I mean, all I have is a filter cone, and a mandrel bent 2.25" exhaust. I mean, I dont even have a MHG, just a toyota OEM HG and 20 year old head bolts (im pretty sure my 7M would have blown another HG, if it didnt throw its rod first)

thanks everyone for their input!


Well here's my setup and I think I may be in the area of 200 horsepower. The guy I bought it from told me he beat a 1998 N/A with this car but I think he's kinda full of sh!t but who knows....

NEW BELTS
NEW HOSES
NEW GASKET KIT
NEW ALTERNATOR
NEW WATER PUMP
NEW BATTERY
OBX CRANKSHAFT PULLY
ELECTRIC FAN
SILICONE HOSE KIT
GROUND WIRE KIT
OBX HEADERS
NEW CAT CONVERTER
N1 MUFFLER
SERVICED INJECTORS(NEW O RINGS)
MSD SPARK PLUG WIRES
NGK IRRIDIUM SPARK PLUGS
NEW FUEL FILTER
NEW FUEL PUMP
STAGE 2 CENTER FORCE CLUTCH
MACHIENED FLY WHEEL
CUSTOM COLD-AIR INTAKE WITH JACKET
SERVICED COLD START INJECTOR
6AL MSD IGNITION BOX
MSD SS BLASTER COIL
MSD TACH/FUEL ADDAPTER
KSPORT KONTROL PRO ADJUSTABLE COILOVERS
KHUMO ECSTA ASX ULTRA HIGH PERFORMANCE ALL SEASON TIRES

[Ma70.Ent]

Well here's my setup and I think I may be in the area of 200 horsepower. The guy I bought it from told me he beat a 1998 N/A with this car but I think he's kinda full of sh!t but who knows....

ELECTRIC FAN
OBX HEADERS
N1 MUFFLER
CUSTOM COLD-AIR INTAKE WITH JACKET

IMO, Those are the only things on that list that would give your more horsepower. Chances are, you're not anywhere near 200 RWHP. Hell, the gains with this custom cold air intake are slim to none I bet, unless it's properly designed.

[MrTwinTurbo1988]

IMO, Those are the only things on that list that would give your more horsepower. Chances are, you're not anywhere near 200 RWHP. Hell, the gains with this custom cold air intake are slim to none I bet, unless it's properly designed.


But my engine is fresh and has a lil more juice than most because of how fresh it is and it was built correctly

[AJ'S 88NA]

Sorry but I have to aggree with Ma70.

Check my mods so far to get to 215 on a fresh motor. Not easy to get 200.

[IJ.]

Easily checked hit a local dyno day for a cheap run.
(I don't think it'll be even close)

[Ma70.Ent]

But my engine is fresh and has a lil more juice than most because of how fresh it is and it was built correctly

Even if it was fresh the estimated "best number" for a stock 7MGE is 165 RWHP. There's no way those mods will bring it up from that to 200 RWHP...

[labrat469]

OK boys and girls, time for new vocabulary words.

STREETABLE: A motor or car that has been modified, but is still usable as a daily driver vehicle without too much effort, discomfort, or risk.

What's the use of a fast car when you can't drive it on the street and it's always in the shop getting repaired, replaced, rebuilt or re-tuned. The more power-adders you put on your motor the more that can go wrong. Let's not forget fuel economy. The more power you put out the more fuel you will use not to mention having to use a higher octane level to stop pinging and detention.

Power band:The range of operating speeds under which the engine is able to operate efficiently.

When increasing your horse power you shrink your power band and move it to the upper RPM range requiring you to rev your motor higher to get to the power you want to use.

If we really want alot of HP then we all need to get rid of our precious 7M's, 1j's, and 2j's and start looking at V8 swaps. I've helped build motors that would would put you in the back seat. But the main problems with them are reliability and maintenance.

So I'll leave you all to ponder this question. How much horse power can you make before your motor is unstreetable?

Hey Defiant, how about taking a 351W and stroking it to a 396 and dropping it into a mid 90's ford ranger. Where were those "OH SHIT!!" handles again?

[DEFIANT 7M]

OK boys and girls, time for new vocabulary words.

STREETABLE: A motor or car that has been modified, but is still usable as a daily driver vehicle without too much effort, discomfort, or risk.

What's the use of a fast car when you can't drive it on the street and it's always in the shop getting repaired, replaced, rebuilt or re-tuned. The more power-adders you put on your motor the more that can go wrong. Let's not forget fuel economy. The more power you put out the more fuel you will use not to mention having to use a higher octane level to stop pinging and detention.

Power band:The range of operating speeds under which the engine is able to operate efficiently.

When increasing your horse power you shrink your power band and move it to the upper RPM range requiring you to rev your motor higher to get to the power you want to use.

If we really want alot of HP then we all need to get rid of our precious 7M's, 1j's, and 2j's and start looking at V8 swaps. I've helped build motors that would would put you in the back seat. But the main problems with them are reliability and maintenance.

So I'll leave you all to ponder this question. How much horse power can you make before your motor is unstreetable?

Hey Defiant, how about taking a 351W and stroking it to a 396 and dropping it into a mid 90's ford ranger. Where were those "OH SHIT!!" handles again?

:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

Streetable...Me??? Have you seen C16 sold at Shell or BP

Powerband...I might be alright????

one more:

Lunatic.........Yep 100% going to try both of the above.

Hell who needs "OH SHIT" handles by the time you grab them it too late. Need to get in with the "Depends" already on and enjoy:biglaugh:

[tubbie]

lol..... Just damn....

Don't forget a bigger throttle too.

[labrat469]

And EVERYONE who has built a fast turbo motor will agree a turbo ain't shit without a good motor behind it. Personally I can not help those who wasted money by "Lego building" or throwing parts onto a motor thinking that they will get the same numbers that the companies claim. Those who don't do the research are the same ones whining because they messed up their motors with a half ass build. Do they research before even touching a bolt on your motor

You need to forcibly remove your head from your ass and wake up. Most of these fast cars your talking about can not be driven on the streets on a daily basis. I laugh at these guys who brag about their fast cars and can't even drive them to the store and back. If you read anything about turbo motors you will realize they have issues with keeping the motor cool, oiling issues, fuel issues, maintenance issues, and keeping the motor in tune so they can use the HP they crank out. N/A's are plain and simple and easier to maintain.

Take your childish anger someplace else. Try a Honda site. You are most ignorant person to disgrace themself I have even seen here.

[IJ.]

AJ: I made 215 today :)
(5Psi boost @ 4000rpm)

[AJ'S 88NA]

AJ: I made 215 today :)
(5Psi boost @ 4000rpm)
Well way to go IJ. Haven't had time to check your build thread yet today but that's great and I'm sure you are going to post larger numbers soon:icon_bigg

[labrat469]

I'm sorry for going off. I'm the poor SOB that has to rebuild someone's "Lego Build" or half ass build at the custom shop. I'm just tired of people thinking that a turbo is God's gift to motors when in reality they are not. They have their own set of problems that adds to the problems that a motor already has. Too many wannabe fast and furious read a couple articles without realizing what all went into building the motors that they are drooling over and think they can build one just like it in less than a weekend by throwing a bunch of high dollar parts together and expect it to last.

I've seen too many of these high HP motors destroyed by little things and stupid mistakes. But most of them are destroyed by ignorant owners who think their +400 HP motors are daily drivers and end up blowing their motor. I've personally seen a 600HP motor destroyed by a .10 cent bolt that got sucked into the intake manifold and bounced around cyl 1 and 8 until it was small enough to get past the valves and destroy pistons and crack the block. The heads were cracked and the valves were missing pieces. I had to do the engine autopsy to find out why the motor failed. The owner voided the warranty by adjusting a bolt on the carb.

Once again sorry for going off.

I'm outta of here like a crackhead with a car stereo.....

[cuel]

Meh, ma70Ent. will (please) clean out all the non-specific "data." I'm glad he does a good job of keeping the good tech threads clean.

Totally agree with your last tech post, though. See "custom(read half-assed)" work all the time in customer's vehicles. Then they wonder why it doesn't run right, cool right, warm up right, etc. Sometimes I want to beat them with their own tools(usually elec. tape, wire cutters, and vice grips, seemingly)...

[Ma70.Ent]

Meh, ma70Ent. will (please) clean out all the non-specific "data." I'm glad he does a good job of keeping the good tech threads clean.

Haha, thanks! Anyways, will do right now. There's no reason to close a thread unless the conflict continues, and this one has currently stopped.

[IJ.]

My above post isn't whoring or bragging it's just to show that with a large Turbo low boost and a very very basic GE based build you could achieve the 200rwhp goal easily at very low RPM. :)

I know people have a multitude of reasons for NOT going NA/T but this approach is another alternative and you end up with a very unstressed nice to drive package that would run on Kerosene.

[DEFIANT 7M]

Hey, I'm sorry for my outburst guys:3d_frown: Totally not me..My "easy" button safety was off.

[AJ'S 88NA]

Hey, I'm sorry for my outburst guys:3d_frown: Totally not me..My "easy" button safety was off.

Wait until you get older, right IJ:biglaugh:

[labrat469]

I dislike turbos because all of the problems associated with them; IE turbo lag, boost leak, boosting at the wrong time, bearings going out, cracked manifolds, turbines, and housings, lubrication failures, spending hours if not days fine tuning A/F ratio, spending a lot more money on the electronics and hardware to run a boosted motor, higher fuel costs. I could go on but you get my meaning. To me turbos are just another headache I rather avoid. If I want more power then I'll get forged internals and a dual stage nitrous kit. It's alot cheaper than building, converting, or swapping a turbo motor in my car. It's there at my command waiting to be used.

[OneJoeZee]

I think you're exaggerating about turbos.

As long as you don't ghetto mod and half ass things, problems will be minimal. Yes, there's more moving parts and things to go wrong but it's not like adding the turbo turned a reliable car into an unreliable car.


Problems and things breaking are more often than not caused by the owner of the car, NA or turbo.

[cuel]

Kerosene, eh? That would be interesting... A diesel 7m...

I have a turbo build in progress(albeit slow...). It won't replace my n/a as my dd; it'll be my weekend toy. I have a donor n/a body pretty much stripped down and ready, just need to finish removing the interior, and start the clean-up work. Of course, both cars will be identical to each other on the outside ;)

That said, I'm keeping my n/a, n/a. It has some modifications already, and I'm almost to the point where I can pull the motor, freshen up the bottom end, and put my newly built head on it. Just gotta get my 'Lude done so I can drive it for a week or 2 while I go through the GE. You can have a built n/a, reliable as a daily driver, that will go another 200k miles. As long as you maintain it properly, and don't go all out.
Which reminds me. I might need some info from you AJ. I'm gonna be getting the MaftPro soon, and might hit you up for a little help, since I haven't seen CRE around in a while. Hope every thing's alright with him...

[labrat469]

I think you're exaggerating about turbos.

As long as you don't ghetto mod and half ass things, problems will be minimal. Yes, there's more moving parts and things to go wrong but it's not like adding the turbo turned a reliable car into an unreliable car.


Problems and things breaking are more often than not caused by the owner of the car, NA or turbo.


I wish I was exaggerating. Everything I mentioned in my post I have seen. Turbos may add alot of power but at what cost. A lot of people sing the praises of turbo but nobody talks about their down side. I just want newbies to see both sides and weigh the risks involved. I've dealt with ghetto rigged, half ass tuned, and "Lego" built motors. And some of those motors supposable were built in reputable shops.

I'm also tired of seeing people build high output motors and then wrap their car around a vertical object because the motor had more power than they could handle on the street. Does anyone ever think about that. How much HP is too much power for the street? My motor I just built is not a street racing motor or a track racing motor. It's a daily driver that will never see above 250 HP. That's my limit that I've decided to go with. Do you actually think a +400 HP can be a daily driver? Hell no! In your quest for power you moved your power band up into the higher RPM's and you shrank the total width of your power band so now you have to work your motor harder just to get to the power band. And you're so happy that you can burn your tires from 1st gear thru 3rd gear. But what is that doing to your stock drive train? Personally I don't like tearing down a transmission and finding the teeth on the input shaft gone and first gear in more pieces than a jig-saw puzzle and second gear missing more teeth than the guys from "Deliverance".

I'm sorry for coming across like I'm some asshole who thinks he knows everything because I don't know everything. I just want people to seriously think about what they are doing when they are building their motor. And realize how each step in building their motor will affect their next step.

[OneJoeZee]

I wish I was exaggerating. Everything I mentioned in my post I have seen. Turbos may add alot of power but at what cost. A lot of people sing the praises of turbo but nobody talks about their down side. I just want newbies to see both sides and weigh the risks involved. I've dealt with ghetto rigged, half ass tuned, and "Lego" built motors. And some of those motors supposable were built in reputable shops.

I'm also tired of seeing people build high output motors and then wrap their car around a vertical object because the motor had more power than they could handle on the street. Does anyone ever think about that. How much HP is too much power for the street? My motor I just built is not a street racing motor or a track racing motor. It's a daily driver that will never see above 250 HP. That's my limit that I've decided to go with. Do you actually think a +400 HP can be a daily driver? Hell no! In your quest for power you moved your power band up into the higher RPM's and you shrank the total width of your power band so now you have to work your motor harder just to get to the power band. And you're so happy that you can burn your tires from 1st gear thru 3rd gear. But what is that doing to your stock drive train? Personally I don't like tearing down a transmission and finding the teeth on the input shaft gone and first gear in more pieces than a jig-saw puzzle and second gear missing more teeth than the guys from "Deliverance".

I'm sorry for coming across like I'm some asshole who thinks he knows everything because I don't know everything. I just want people to seriously think about what they are doing when they are building their motor. And realize how each step in building their motor will affect their next step.


I don't think you're coming across as an asshole at all but it sounds like you have a small chip on your shoulder about turbo cars. If NA is your choice, that's fine. I'm not telling you that's wrong. But you don't need to knock on turbo cars talking about all the extra parts and things that can go wrong to justify your being NA. And just the same, turbo owners don't need to knock on NAs to justify their choice.

And you are exaggerating about turbo cars. You make it sound like owning a turbocharged car is like rolling the dice everytime you drive and it's not. The majority of people have cars with basic boltons. There's nothing wrong with a turbo Supra with bolt ons that has been maintained properly. If it's a car that's much more modified(built motor, upgraded turbo, etc), then all bets are off. The reliability there will come from the build quality. But the same goes for a built NA motor. If the motor isn't put together right, shit's going to fail. It doesn't matter if there's a turbo strapped to the engine or not.

Unreliable turbo Supras are unreliable because of poor maintence and owners that run them into the ground. And it's not like this is limited to turbos. Plenty NA cars are just as poorly maintained and poorly treated and have reliability problems because of it too.

Browse the NA and Turbo sections. Both of them have plenty threads about people having issues with their cars.

Supras are reliable if cared for. Both turbos and NAs. The turbo model isn't inherently more unreliable than the NA.

I've been daily driving a turbo Supra for 5 years. A 7M with modest bolt ons, a 1J with modest bolt ons, and a 1J with upgraded turbos.


I'm not sure what unreliable hack job turbo Supras(are you even talking about Supras?) you're talking about but don't blame it on the fact that the car is turbocharged. Blame the owner or whoever failed to properly build the car. Turbo Supras can be and are reliabe, end of story.

[Ma70.Ent]

I may be N/A, but I agree with OneJoeZee. Turbo cars aren't that bad. I'll take two of my favorite quotes from around here...


There is very little wrong with this car as intended from the factory. The only thing is all of you that have gotten your hands on them. Those of you in this category know who you are, and those who are not know who you meat heads are.


However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.

IMO, nothing wrong with the car, just the owner(s).

[AJ'S 88NA]

I might need some info from you AJ. I'm gonna be getting the MaftPro soon, and might hit you up for a little help, since I haven't seen CRE around in a while. Hope every thing's alright with him...
Anyway I can help cuel, CRE has a way of showing up when somebody really needs some help, I know I couldn't have got mine as close as I have with out his help.

Back on subject, I don't care what you are driving with no mods stock or maxed out with turbos if you don't maintain it and you drive the piss out of it everytime you drive it it's going to break. The more stuff you have on it the more it's going to cost you to fix it.

It seems there is always a weak link somewere.

[91supran/a]

how about this ok....i have a 1991 NA i have put an OBX header on mine with a custom 2.75 exaust and high flow cat.

so how bout electric supercharger now everyone laughs haha right but ive found a really bad ass one for cheep $110 shiped. ppl have been seeing 6-8 psi for boost im thinkin about experamenting heres the website www.electricsupercharger.net
check the forums on there. there is a dyno sheat and it shows 60 hp increase that sould be niceeeeeeeee:biglaugh: lol anyway check it out.

[cuel]

lol. Might work on a 'stang, Honda, or some other easily programmed vehicle. If you did attempt it, I'd advice a piggy back fuel management system, and stay away from the chip. Doubt they make one(chip) for the Supra anyway...

[Ma70.Ent]

Chips don't exist for our car.

http://www.4cefed.com/jetecuscam.html

[labrat469]

how about this ok....i have a 1991 NA i have put an OBX header on mine with a custom 2.75 exaust and high flow cat.

so how bout electric supercharger now everyone laughs haha right but ive found a really bad ass one for cheep $110 shiped. ppl have been seeing 6-8 psi for boost im thinkin about experamenting heres the website www.electricsupercharger.net
check the forums on there. there is a dyno sheat and it shows 60 hp increase that sould be niceeeeeeeee:biglaugh: lol anyway check it out.

I wouldn't waste my money on that. The ones I've seen at higher RPM's become restrictive because the air is moving faster than the blades. People have been experimenting with those since they came out in the 90's.

When some company claims high gains they put in fine print all of the other work that they have done to the motor before adding their gizmo.

Caveat emptor (Let the buyer beware)

Before adding any mods go get the machine work done first.

[Ma70.Ent]

Electric Superchargers...there's so much discussion on how useless they are, but I'll post up a good article I found for you, so maybe you could decide...:P

http://www.wildweasel.ca/HowTo/Auto/eTurbo.aspx


So now we ultimately come to the discussion on the idea of an electric supercharger.

First I want to note that this article doesn't apply to the few electrically driven compressors that have been specifically engineered for the purpose of providing short-term boost over a quarter mile. The Thomas Knight products are an example. Those kits are similar to a turbo or centrifugal blower driven by a high-amperage electric motor and require heavy duty wiring and entire banks of batteries to drive them. They do not hook up to the stock 12v vehicle electrical system and are not meant for street-driven vehicles as they are only capable of producing boost for very short periods and require a long time to recharge. These kits cost thousands of dollars and if you're considering purchasing one, I'm going to assume that the scope of this article is elementary in comparison to the knowledge you must already have.

So then, back to the topic of electrical superchargers. Understanding that forcing more air into the engine will make more power, it stands to reason that if we can place an electric fan in the intake path that will force air into it, we can make more power.

The problem with this idea is that most people who think of it really have no idea how much air gets pumped by the engine during its normal operation. The engine acts as a big air pump and is capable of moving huge volumes of air all on its own. With that in mind, any electric fan that you place in the path of the intake is only going to act as an obstacle to efficient airflow and not provide any level of boost whatsoever. In order to provide boost, the fan has to be able to force more air through the intake than is already being sucked and that's simply not going to happen with some off-the-shelf computer fan or bilge exhaust blower or whatever else you've found or had marketed to you.

Now that you realize how futile the idea of an electric supercharger is, consider the dangers. If you place something in the intake path between your air filter and the engine and that thing isn't made to be there, you now run the risk of having it break and send unfiltered pieces into your engine, potentially causing catastrophic failure. I would hope this is more than enough to discourage experimentation in this area.

As a general rule, if something seems too good to be true it generally is. Modifying a car to add power isn't a cheap endeavour and most of these sorts of shortcuts will only end up burning you in the end.

Interestingly, the company from whom I got that image above even has a small disclaimer on their site with a list of cars that showed no gain from their units. The list included GM's 2.4L engine in both the Grand Am and Cavalier Z24. I suspect it likely includes all cars from ripped-off customers who bothered to get the system dyno tested.

Notes:
I've had some questions posted about this that I'd like to address. First off, on the topic of whether one of these things will actually be a hindrance to the airflow, I did some calculations to determine the maximum airflow of a 2.4L engine. If you're interested in this, the thread can be found here. Please let me know if you find the link to be broken.

Secondly, someone just recently mentioned in my guestbook that these fans can be found rated to move upwards of 1000 cfm. I just wanted to note that those ratings are referring to the amount of air moved in an unrestricted environment, for which they've been designed. If you install one of those in your boat to bring outside air into the cabin, it may very well move 1000 cfm. If, however, you place it in a restricted path such as your engine intake where there simply isn't room to move that air without building up pressure, it will not build up that pressure that you want. While it may be capable of moving this much air past it, it is not capable of forcing that air to compress into the smaller space.

On Thursday, Feb. 24, 2006, a Mr. Ed. Walker left a note in the guestbook saying the following:

it is about the cfm, and not the psi. as long as your giving the vehicles motor more air than it can naturally draw in(cfm). read the definition of the supercharger in the dictionary. and our dyno results. www.streetfreakzperformance.com


I won't address all the spelling and grammatical errors. I'll leave that up to the reader to make their own conclusions about. As for looking up the Dictionary Definition of a Supercharger... Well the reader can do it themselves and find that my reference above is quite accurate and that nothing about an electric blower fits it. An electric blower doesn't force air and doesn't compress it.

Let's look at what he's saying though. Obviously Mr. Walker didn't read the whole page but I wouldn't expect that from someone trying to bilk people out of their hard-earned money. He suggests that CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) is the key here, rather than PSI (Pounds per Square Inch). He's saying that flow is more important than pressure.

First of all, I stress again that the CFM rating of those electric blowers is completely irrelevant in this application and does not reflect how much air the fan will push into the engine. That number reflects the amount of air the fan can move through it in an unrestricted environment. An intake tube with an engine powerfully sucking air through it is hardly an unrestricted environment.

An industrial exhaust fan, 4 feet in diameter and turning at 100 rpm, may be capable of moving hundreds of thousands of CFM of air but if you were to stick it to your car and create a funnel leading into your intake, it wouldn't do you the least bit of good. The same goes for these little blower fans people are hawking as superchargers. As mentioned above, just because it is capable of moving 1000 (or more) CFM of air through it in an unrestricted environment does not mean that it is going to force that much air into the engine. With air already in front of it, the fan blades will just churn through the existing air causing a restriction in flow while the engine continues to suck just as much as it was before.

In a boost application, PSI is important. CFM is also important, but only in how it is applied in conjunction with the pressure. The CFM of the whole system, engine included, is key but adding an electric blower to the system does NOT increase that CFM by any significant amount no matter how high the CFM rating of that blower is.

People will tell you CFM is important, like Mr. Walker did, and here I will provide an example of how that is true with respect to the whole system.

If you take a stock engine and add forced induction via a roots style supercharger, you will increase your manifold PSI and the engine's CFM of air consumption. By forcing more air in, you obviously move more air through. Note here that electric blowers do not force more air in because they do not increase the manifold PSI. They are not a form of forced induction. Now that you've got your boost (PSI increase), let's say you go and replace your entire exhaust system with something much better flowing. The result here is that the air can pass more freely through the engine so the CFM can increase. This may bring with it a corresponding DECREASE in manifold pressure (PSI) while providing more power. Your boost gauge will read a lower amount but your engine will make more power. This is because the supercharger is still forcing in the same amount of air but the engine is consuming it faster and making more power. If you had used a turbo, the turbo would simply supply more air to keep the PSI at the level you'd set. To get your PSI back up with the supercharger, you'd need a smaller pulley.

Now an unscrupulous salesman might spin these numbers to note that with the higher CFM you're making more power even though you've got less manifold pressure (PSI). With that in mind, clearly having an electric blower with a huge CFM rating will help you.

Let's look at that scenario.

If you take that same engine stock, there will be no pressure (PSI) in the manifold. Air is simply flowing through as fast as the engine can suck it in and blow it out. With a good intake, this is fairly efficient. Now let's add our high flowing exhaust system. We still don't have any manifold pressure, but our CFM has increased. We're making more power because the engine is more efficiently consuming the air it's sucking through. Now you add an electric supercharger. They tell you that it's got some monster CFM rating but curiously, the CFM hasn't changed or, perhaps, has dropped a little. This is because the air can no longer smoothly flow through that section of your intake. They want you to believe that the fan is helping the air along, but the truth is that if the intake was free flowing beforehand then all you've done is put in a restriction. The fan can't compress the air in front of it so it can't move the CFM that it could with no restriction. In turn, the fan itself provides restriction to the overall system, bringing down the engine's CFM of air consumption.

For a little bit of amusement for all my fans here, this is taken directly from Mr. Walker's website.

The E-Turbo from Street Freakz Performance is designed for just that. At full throttle, your performance turns to 800 cubic feet per minute, equivalent of 185 miles per hour of wind being shoved down your throttle body. Or get a twin setup, which will be 370 miles per hour!

Anyone dumb enough to think that this thing is going to provide hurricane-force winds to their engine probably deserves to be suckered out of their money. That fact aside though, the speed that air flows through a fan is entirely dependant on the rpm of the fan and the amount of restriction to airflow that exists. If you put 20 fans in a row, the air flowing through them does not accelerate faster and faster through each fan. The fans later in the line will simply have less load on them as they won't have to work to move the air. It's already flowing as fast as they'd be trying to move it. Of course, if you put a powerful vacuum at the end of this chain, all those fans would just be providing more and more restriction to the flow.

Hell, just google stuff like "do electric superchargers work" and you'll find some possible answers.

[91supran/a]

hmmm i dont know i still might just try it just for shits and gigels. if it dont work ill just put it on my dads Stang and see wat happens. i wasent gonna install the so called "chip" they include. but ill keep you guys posted i mean it dosent look like the e-ram system at all. it looks like a output side of a turbo with an electric motor on it and i found some spects on it

air flow: 1123 (double wat a 5.0 takes in at 5,000 rpm)

power consumption: 700 watts

motor speed: 24562 rpm

thats pretty good i mean if i get anything over 3psi i got my moneys worth ill let you guys know and post some pics of it installed. ill try and save some money and get it dynoed b4 and after.

[Ma70.Ent]

hmmm i dont know i still might just try it just for shits and gigels. if it dont work ill just put it on my dads Stang and see wat happens. i wasent gonna install the so called "chip" they include. but ill keep you guys posted i mean it dosent look like the e-ram system at all. it looks like a output side of a turbo with an electric motor on it and i found some spects on it

air flow: 1123 (double wat a 5.0 takes in at 5,000 rpm)

power consumption: 700 watts

motor speed: 24562 rpm

thats pretty good i mean if i get anything over 3psi i got my moneys worth ill let you guys know and post some pics of it installed. ill try and save some money and get it dynoed b4 and after.

Good luck with that, lol.

[gofastgeorge]

Give me $100, and I will send you some magic liquid,
that when rubbed on your rear tires will make so much more HP,
your tires will spin at only 10% throttle opening.

This stuff is amazing !
After applying, I could even start off in 4th gear, and spin the tires!
:naughty:

[flight doc89]

Give me $100, and I will send you some magic liquid,
that when rubbed on your rear tires will make so much more HP,
your tires will spin at only 10% throttle opening.

This stuff is amazing !
After applying, I could even start off in 4th gear, and spin the tires!
:naughty:

lol, thats not your tires smoking........ :D

these shitty little computer fan e-SC's arent gonna do shit. now, that said, i have seen a couple very nice kits (and expensive) that WILL compress like 4-6 psi boost, but you have to let it recharge between runs, and it runs outta juice after like 10 seconds or so.

just go toibo

[AJ'S 88NA]

Well if he wants to blow a $100.00 to check it out I've got a syntheic blend of gofastgeorge's secret stuff and I'll double the order.

[91supran/a]

Why are you guys baging on the idea i mean u cant really say anything about it till you try it. i mean its got a money back garuntee. if i get it and its a POS then ill send it back simple! but anyway if i do it insteed of runin a piggy back couldent i just retard the timeing like turboin a na engine? i mean wouldent really solve fuel problems but it would stop detenation!

[cuel]

Is it amps*volts=watts?

If so, then 700watts/12volts=58.3333 amps.

The stock alternator is rated at 70 amps, iirc.

Maybe you could retard the timing enough to stop detonation. Then your just running real lean. No biggie, right??

That's supposing it actually works....

[91supran/a]

um it says 700 watts and mine has been upgraded b4 i bought it it says 125amps on it i think im not sure its covered up right now and i dont want to uncover it. anyway ill look tomorow. but i mean it would run lean yeah. i mean i want to swap the motor but im 16 and workin the a$$ of for insurance plus dad is a master tech for toyota well used to be and he is a nazi and wont let me swap but i mean ill keep u posted if i even do it.

o here is the forum were the guy tested it and the numbers http://www.electricsupercharger.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5
thanks for the input i mean its worth a try but no one can really be a dick about it till they tryed it!
heres a good pic of one guy put up that his looked like when he got it http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2006142381694332266

[DEFIANT 7M]

If you lean out, you loose an engine! It is the electric age Hybrid car this and that. Do it let us know, but if you aren't smart about it. It's on you! Make sure the fuel is there, at least get a fuel pump. Just don't slap the thing on and back of the timming and call it good. Then you are going to have a build thread going. Prep your car like you are going for a 50 shot, then you may have a chance if something goes wrong.

[91supran/a]

yeah thats true i sould at least do a fuel pump im thinkin mayb ill just by it and presure test it first if i dont get wat there sayin i wont even bother doin it and just send it back.

[IJ.]

Another WoS candidate in the making......:nono:

[jetjock]

I agree. Those things don't work. Period. Some of us can be dicks about it because we paid attention in science class. He should do the same.

Hey, what was it like being 16? Was it as scary and helpless as he makes it sound? Wish I could remember ;)

[Quin]

16 here, not experiencing anything like that.

Look dude, several people just clearly stated it's not going to help in any way, shape, or form. Ignoring the fact that it could very seriously hurt (aka destroy) your motor, why spend $100 on some useless POS? I'm working two jobs and $100 still isn't too easy to come by.

[Ma70.Ent]

Heh, I already posted a pretty damn good link as to why he shouldn't do it, but I don't know how else to convince him :)

[Nick M]

DEFINITELY upgrade the exhaust, I LOVED my 3" on my NA. I went from a crush bent 2.5" to a catless mandrel straight 3" and it felt like a whole different car.

Still shoveling it I see...you posted a one and a half horsepower difference-pathetic no gain- a year apart, with that change. Over a crushed bent exhaust, the worst kind.

A quality 3 inch exahust will shift the torque up in the RPM range. 200 rwhp is feasible without breaking the bank. These low hp cars sound like they have problems, besides the old age and worn out.


With my old NA, i was able to net a 15.89. If i remember right that was just with exhaust.

If you listed the mph, we could closely guess the hp needed to run that 15.89. 88-89 mph is about 180 rwhp in a 3650 car with driver.

[labrat469]

Horse power cost money before, during, and after the build. Save the money from these cheap mods and put it toward rebuilding the motor. You will find out that it's the little things inside the motor that will come back and ass rape you over the hood of your car. The best mod to start out with is a fresh rebuild.

I'm going to try and help you get around your dad's "NO MODS!" policy. Here are some excuses ...err reasons you can use on your dad for getting a rebuild.

1) Better fuel economy.
2) Improved reliability
3) Cheaper than buying you another car (Most of the time).

If your dad is willing to help pay for the rebuild here is how you can sneak some things past him. He's probably against any and all external mods. So what does that leave you in the modding department. Internal mods. Remember the motor is almost 20 years old and will probably need some work done and replacement parts. And you are just trying to make the motor just as strong and reliable as it was. Just don't go overboard on the mods.

Let's start with the head. Here are some plausible reasons you can used

Shaving the head: To correct any warping from years of heating and cooling.

Porting and Polishing: To remove carbon build up around the valves and ports allowing better air flow.

Stronger springs: To prevent valves and pistons meeting each other because you know that one day you will mis-shift and over-rev the motor by mistake.

ARP bolts: To replace the stock ones with stronger bolts to help prevent BHG's from the head moving during the heating and cooling

Now for the block.

Boring out the cylinders: The cylinder walls were tapered and need to be bored out a little.

Over sized pistons and rings: To properly fit the new bore of the motor because of the tapered walls.

When buying your rebuild kit make sure that it comes with the modified parts you need. And remember your two best friends are the guy doing the work on your motor and the guy selling you the parts you need.


(Why do I feel like Eddie Haskel from "Leave it to Beaver".......)
(cue music)

[gofastgeorge]

Maybe we should get this guy to post on supramania......

http://rides.sportcompactcarweb.com/ride/1007534/texas-cressida/1989/toyota/cressida/index.html

[AJ'S 88NA]

Maybe we should get this guy to post on supramania......

http://rides.sportcompactcarweb.com/ride/1007534/texas-cressida/1989/toyota/cressida/index.htmlI think he's already here;)

[Isphius]

Im sure you would need an aftermarket set of cams to do that. Get a few more RPMs out of it. the stock head and valves seem fine enough. just need to find a way to make power at 7000 rpms and your there lol

[AJ'S 88NA]

Im sure you would need an aftermarket set of cams to do that. Get a few more RPMs out of it. the stock head and valves seem fine enough. just need to find a way to make power at 7000 rpms and your there lol
Takes a lot more than a set of cams.:)

[AGlobalThreat]

DEFINITELY upgrade the exhaust, I LOVED my 3" on my NA. I went from a crush bent 2.5" to a catless mandrel straight 3" and it felt like a whole different car.



Still shoveling it I see...you posted a one and a half horsepower difference-pathetic no gain- a year apart, with that change. Over a crushed bent exhaust, the worst kind.

Sorry but no that wasn't me. I'm speaking from experience

Ass.

[Isphius]

Takes a lot more than a set of cams.:)


I meant, all the bolt ons that he was planning and cams on top of it all. Just in a "thats how far youll have to go" way

[sgtmcboom]

come on


I am on my third yes third N/A motor in my 89 supra.
The first motor was knocking when I got it I opted for a jdm replacement it ran fine. My "old" mechanic apparntly used the same oil pump out of the motor with rod knock well that didnt go to well car never had more then 20psi of oil and it went the way of the dodo also. So now I just installed my third N/A motor it is also jdm out of a cressida but it works fine I have a new oil pump a $200 oilpump it is running fine and works perfectly I have walked on a few little hondas that should have had me by the power to weight numbers and I like what I have right now.

[AJ'S 88NA]

come on


I am on my third yes third N/A motor in my 89 supra.
The first motor was knocking when I got it I opted for a jdm replacement it ran fine. My "old" mechanic apparntly used the same oil pump out of the motor with rod knock well that didnt go to well car never had more then 20psi of oil and it went the way of the dodo also. So now I just installed my third N/A motor it is also jdm out of a cressida but it works fine I have a new oil pump a $200 oilpump it is running fine and works perfectly I have walked on a few little hondas that should have had me by the power to weight numbers and I like what I have right now.
So what are you trying to say???

[AGlobalThreat]

He likes his 7MGE.

I liked mine too when I had it.