Brian Crower Stage 2 cams RPM operating range?

[chris89]

I'm looking to getting these set of cams, but i was wondering what the rpm operating range is for them? Does anyone know how the car will run after i get the cams on it? I'm looking for added low end torque and added high rpm power, And how much power could be gained?

http://www.briancrower.com/makes/toyota/7mgte.shtml

[BLACKCAT]

From what I have been able to find out they seem to work well from around 3,000 rpm onwards.
How high is determined by the condition of your valve springs, exhaust etc.
The idle quality is ordinary, with the stock ECU, & you will have to advance both cams quite a bit as it will probably idle like crap at 0 & 0.
Installing adjustable cam gears (lucky I got mine) will make it so much easier to get acceptable results.

[amichie]

I have found with mine that the performance is better than the stock cams throughout the rev range. The pick up off the mark is great and when the ECU changes gear they are still pulling stong.

The idle quality however is now marginal.

My cams are both set to +3 deg advance as mentioned above and general drivability etc is excellent.

[AJ'S 88NA]

Some kind of fuel management would help to use these cams to their potential.

[chris89]

I just want it to keep pulling past 6k...

[chris89]

I have found with mine that the performance is better than the stock cams throughout the rev range. The pick up off the mark is great and when the ECU changes gear they are still pulling stong.

The idle quality however is now marginal.

My cams are both set to +3 deg advance as mentioned above and general drivability etc is excellent.

what do u mean, when the ecu changes gear? I'm looking for pull past 6,000rpm.

[chris89]

Would these cam gears work for my 7m-ge? Also what kind of fuel management would be recommended? SAFC2 or something?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-Adjustable-Cam-Gears-for-Toyota-Supra-86-92_W0QQitemZ150184173060QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150184173060

[AJ'S 88NA]

Would these cam gears work for my 7m-ge? Also what kind of fuel management would be recommended? SAFC2 or something?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AEM-Adjustable-Cam-Gears-for-Toyota-Supra-86-92_W0QQitemZ150184173060QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150184173060Yes they will work.

Apiex SAFC II would work very well. I have one if you are interested.:naughty:

[amichie]

what do u mean, when the ecu changes gear? I'm looking for pull past 6,000rpm.

The ECU controls the gear shifts and when it changes gear it still has very good power.

5500-6000rpm shift points. I think fuel cut occurs around 7000rpm so there is not much more room to move.

[chris89]

I really can't spend to much more money on an safc2 or an aftermarket valve springs/ retainers kit. Will the car run fine with just the stage 2 brian crower cams, and AEM Adjustable Cam gears, and my Stock Valve springs and retainers? Is there anyway i could just Use my stock Cam gears possibly? and have the car running fine? I'm really debating on if i will really need the new valve springs and retainers. BTW when i had my head rebuilt they tested the valve springs etc and they were good. Are AEM cam gears pretty good?

[cuel]

Comp Cams part#: 975. It's the inner valve spring for a big block chevy dual spring kit. 55 lbs. seat pressure, 127 lbs open pressure. Stock is around 35 lbs. seat pressure. You need 2 sets. They run around $30 each set from Summit, but I got mine from a local Comp dealer for $50 total.

[chris89]

I was hoping on using my Stock valve train... Will the AEM Adjustable Cam Gears for the 7m-gte fit the 7m-ge?

[cuel]

Stock valve train will only be good for stock rev limit and red line. Once you go beyond a certain point, the valves will start to "float," meaning they hang open because the springs don't have enough opening pressure to pull them closed before the cam lobe comes around again. So the stock valve train is only good for the stock limit. In order to get higher revs, you need to upgrade the valve train. Cams will give you more power as the motor will breathe better, but not a higher rev limit than stock, as the valve train hasn't been upgraded.

I hope that came out right...

[chris89]

yeah it did, I understand now. I'm just looking to keeping the rev limit at what 6,750rpm... that's where mine seems to limit at. I'm just looking to making the engine stronger and make it wanna make power all the way until the redline if not all the way to the limiter. Do you know if the 7m-gte adjustable cam gears will work on the 7m-ge as well?

[cuel]

I believe so. The stock gears look identical. I'll compare them tomorrow to be sure.

[amichie]

yeah it did, I understand now. I'm just looking to keeping the rev limit at what 6,750rpm... that's where mine seems to limit at. I'm just looking to making the engine stronger and make it wanna make power all the way until the redline if not all the way to the limiter. Do you know if the 7m-gte adjustable cam gears will work on the 7m-ge as well?

Yes. The 7m-gte cam wheels will work. They are the same.

You can achieve +/-3 and +/- 4.5 and +/- 6 and +/- 7.5 degrees with the stock cam wheels. They are a vernier style wheel. However you will have to remove the wheel and refit it to change the timing.

Adjustable cam wheels just make it easier.

If your rev limit is 6750 rpm then your stock valve gear is more than upto the job.

[chris89]

So will the car idle and run fine with both the cams at 0* with the stock cam gears? I need to know if i need adjustable cam gears. What do u mean by stock valve gear? never heard of it. Did u mean cam gear?

[amichie]

So will the car idle and run fine with both the cams at 0* with the stock cam gears? I need to know if i need adjustable cam gears. What do u mean by stock valve gear? never heard of it. Did u mean cam gear?


By valve gear I mean springs, retainers, buckets etc.

With cams set at 0 you will most likely get the same crap performance that I and Blackcat have found.

If you advance both cams by +3 degrees your performance will most likely be pretty close to optimum. I am assuming you have an otherwise stock NA engine.

Just use the stock cam wheels and change the hole the drive pin goes in to give you + 3 degrees.

If you are not confident in doing this then go and buy a set of adjustabe wheels.

[chris89]

I had a question about head bolts. I plan on getting ARP head bolts but i was wondering if I should use Red lock tite on them? Also does the head bolts come with instructions on what the torque specs are supposed to be? or is there any torque spec that might be more reliable?

[AJ'S 88NA]

I had a question about head bolts. I plan on getting ARP head bolts but i was wondering if I should use Red lock tite on them? Also does the head bolts come with instructions on what the torque specs are supposed to be? or is there any torque spec that might be more reliable?
ARP bolts come with lube to install them with and torque specs.
Read up on the other threads on here, there's plenty, for tips and do's and don'ts.

Amichie: By moving the pin on the stock gears wouldn't that be more than 3 deg.? It sure looks like it would be. Can you just off set the timing belt to get the 3 deg? It looks like that dimension would be less. I haven't counted the teeth on the gears to see how many degrees it would be.

[amichie]

ARP bolts come with lube to install them with and torque specs.
Read up on the other threads on here, there's plenty, for tips and do's and don'ts.

Amichie: By moving the pin on the stock gears wouldn't that be more than 3 deg.? It sure looks like it would be. Can you just off set the timing belt to get the 3 deg? It looks like that dimension would be less. I haven't counted the teeth on the gears to see how many degrees it would be.

Get head studs. Forget head bolts.

The factory cam wheel is a vernier wheel.:icon_bigg

The cam is varied either by 3 or 4.5 cam degrees by moving the sprocket dowel pin by one position. It works on exactly the same principle as an old fashioned vernier scale and these wheels are often called vernier cam wheels.

This method is as old as the hills. If you have a different number of equally spaced cam wheel positions to the number of teeth on the gear then each cam wheel position will have a slight misalignment. In this case the cam wheel has 3 holes but they are spaced as though there are 5 equally spaced holes. The gear has 48 teeth. If you divide 48 by 5 you get 9.6. So when you move the cam wheel by 1 postion you change it by 9.6 teeth. To then make the belt fit you have to either advance the wheel by 0.4 teeth and go to 10 or retard by 0.6 and go back to 9.


0.4/48 times 360 degrees = 3 degrees.

0.6/48 times 360 degrees = 4.5 degrees.

If you just move the cam on the belt by one tooth, one tooth equals 7.5 cam degrees or 15 crank degrees.

Obviuosly if you change the drive pin hole then the original timing mark is no longer valid and you will have to make new marks on the cam wheel. Fortunately this is dead easy. If you use the spoke as a coarse marker there will be two positions that are close to having the spoke vertical. The one with the spoke pointing leaning 1 o'clock corresponds to cam advance.
If the spoke is leaning towards 11 o'clock corresponds to cam retard.

Good luck

Below is a direct copy and paste from the cressida forum. Since you won't be able to see it unless you sign up I just copied and pasted from there.

Original author was spooled 7mgte.
7M's has 9 different setup of cam timing that can be achieved by playing with cam holes, and camgear holes.

Cam, as the camgear, has 3 different holes, for 3 different timing setup.

But in reality, I do think you can only have 5 setups, since -3 with +3 will give a 0 (stock configuration)

-3 cam with stock gear will give -3 timing. -3 cam with -3 gear will give -6 timing. You still following me?

Heres some pictures of the 9 different setups that dans be done (9 setups, not 9 timings!)

http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camholestock.jpg

Here, we can see 3 different cam holes, the middle, as for the camgear, is the stock 7M setup



http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camholestockwithcamgearstock.jpg

This is the stock setup, notice the timing marks wich we will use to see the differences that will be provided with following setups. We will call this setup : 0



http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camholestockwithcamgear-3.jpg

This is the stock cam hole with timing gear reversed of 3 degrees wich by the timing mark should provide a -3 timing setup.

we can call this setup : -3

http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camholestockwithcamgear+3.jpg

Here we can see a nice difference between the -3 and +3 positions, telling you that I'm not takin a bunch of pictures for nothing! :o :P

We can call this setup : +3


http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole-3.jpg

This is camhole position -3 I made grove on cover and holes to try to make them perfect match, not 100% perfect but enough so we can see differences in following pictures.



http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole-3withcamgearstock.jpg

Since this is a -3 camhole with a 0 cam gear, it should give the same as the stock camhole with -3 camgear, so we can also call this setup : -3


http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole-3withcamgear-3.jpg

Camhole-3 with camgear -3, we should notice a big difference now between stock setup with the timing marks. We can call this setup : -6 since we've got "-3" + "-3"



http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole-3withcamgear+3.jpg

here we have -3 camhole with +3 cam gear, so it should also gives a setup called : 0



http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole+3.jpg

Camhole at position +3



http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole+3withcamgearstock.jpg

+3 with 0 will give a setup called : +3




http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole+3withcamgear-3.jpg

+3 with -3 will give a setup called : 0


http://www.membres.lycos.fr/flashxperience1/7mcams/camhole+3withcamgear+3.jpg

and finally, both holes on +3 wich are gonna give a +6 setup.



This is pretty basic and "home made" so pictures may not give a clear view of REAL result. If I am wrong in any part of this guide or my writings are not clear or full of ponctuation errors, please notice me so I can edit.

This is only for consultation and results stated in this guide are not confirmed by toyota or TRSM. for the moment.

Enjoy!

[chris89]

What's wrong with head bolts? I don't understand how a head stud would work anyway...? Bolts seem alot easier. How are studs installed?

[IJ.]

Boy does someone have it WRONG above.......

There are 3 holes in eac cam and 3 in each stock pully.

pin in the middle holes is 0

pin in the left holes is x degrees one way

pin in right holes is x degrees the other.

(hint the holes are offset so the timing mark on the pully stays straight up)

[cuel]

Hmmm..... I'm kind of confused by the above pics. Is he actually moving the cams so that the pin holes to the right or left are pointing up, or just moving the pins and gears around with the center cam hole pointing up(or close)?

[chris89]

What's wrong with head bolts? I don't understand how a head stud would work anyway...? Bolts seem alot easier. How are studs installed?

[BLACKCAT]

The more I look at those pictures the more I am confused with his logic.
As the engine & cams turn clockwise then moving the pin to the left of centre, for both the cam & wheel, would be advancing the cam & not retarding it.

[amichie]

What's wrong with head bolts? I don't understand how a head stud would work anyway...? Bolts seem alot easier. How are studs installed?


You get more clamping force and less twisting force for the same torque setting when using studs rather than bolts. Mostly due to the condition of the thread in the block.

[amichie]

The more I look at those pictures the more I am confused with his logic.
As the engine & cams turn clockwise then moving the pin to the left of centre, for both the cam & wheel, would be advancing the cam & not retarding it.

That is correct. He has got his advance and retard back to front.

[amichie]

Boy does someone have it WRONG above.......

There are 3 holes in eac cam and 3 in each stock pully.

pin in the middle holes is 0

pin in the left holes is x degrees one way

pin in right holes is x degrees the other.

(hint the holes are offset so the timing mark on the pully stays straight up)


The only thing wrong is the fact he got his retard advance the wrong way around (as pointed out by Blackcat). The holes are equally spaced. Imagine a 5 spoke mag wheel fitted to a four stud hub. If the wheel is removed with one spoke pointing straight up and then refitted and rotated around one position on the studs then the spoke will no longer be pointing straight up.

[chris89]

do Brian crower cams come with instructions on how to set them up correctly to get it running right? Basically from what you've guy's said is that all i need to do is set both the intake and exhaust cams 3+ degrees advanced and it should run fine... But what if it doesn't? Oh and you put the engine in time just you would with the stock cams, correct? (set the crank to 0, set both cams to 0 and put the belt on)

[wchico15]

whats the benefit of upgrading to these cams, and the aem gears?

[chris89]

whats the benefit of upgrading to these cams, and the aem gears?

what do u think? Obviously more power.

[wchico15]

just asking

[chris89]

just asking

sorry, i mistakenly took u as a usual asshole turbo guy who always dogs on the NA's.

[IJ.]

The only thing wrong is the fact he got his retard advance the wrong way around (as pointed out by Blackcat). The holes are equally spaced. Imagine a 5 spoke mag wheel fitted to a four stud hub. If the wheel is removed with one spoke pointing straight up and then refitted and rotated around one position on the studs then the spoke will no longer be pointing straight up.
The holes work as pairs.

hole 1 in Cam and pully = x

hole 2 in cam and pully = xx

hole 3 in cam and pully = xxx

I have NFI what turning the Pully onto hole 1 pully and hole 2 cam yields.

[wchico15]

its kool bro