I'm the dumbest supra owner ever

[Frank Rizzo]

Well I just can't leave well enough alone.

I decided to clean my MAF sensor yesterday. Yeah bad idea. I used CRC MAF cleaner.

Needless to say its fucked now, throwing code 31 ever since I started it after the cleaning. I took the sensor completely out of the housing and its sure is clean alright. Engine just dies upon any throttle, smoking heavily at idle and smells so rich I could pass out if I stand at the rear of the car.

I saw the thread here titled CRC MAF cleaner after I did that. I'm such a retard.

Priced a brand new MAF at the dealer- $807. My balls were up in my throat when I heard that. They don't sell the sensor separate, just the entire aluminum housing with the MAF installed already.

I haven't gone to NAPA or any discount auto parts store yet, do they even sell MAFs for turbo supras?

I want to steer clear of used ones.

[Nomad707]

oh jesus dude im sorry... that sucks..

Just a few weeks ago i broke my idle control valve (like 400$ new) but opted for a used one on ebay for 20$,

i hope you can get this cleared up without raping your wallet!

[Frank Rizzo]

Thing is, I already put a deposit on the MAF at the dealer.

And I checked the MAF with an ohmmeter. Every thing had infinite resistance except the temperature sensing part. That ohm'd out perfect to spec within the temp I tested it at. That makes sense because I don't get code 23? (temp sensor code) unless the MAF is unhooked and I check the codes.

[Frank Rizzo]

I get a discount at my Toyota dealer. I only pay $650 but still!!!!! That could have been my fluidyne radiator and my walbro fuel pump WTF LOL.

[suprahooked]

Thing is, I already put a deposit on the MAF at the dealer.

And I checked the MAF with an ohmmeter. Every thing had infinite resistance except the temperature sensing part. That ohm'd out perfect to spec within the temp I tested it at. That makes sense because I don't get code 23? (temp sensor code) unless the MAF is unhooked and I check the codes.
Buy a used one and dont clean it.:nono:

[SevenMKIII]

You could buy several off of here or ebay before raking up $807. You would have a good chance of finding a working used one if you just look a little before placing an order through Toyota.

If you have the money and don't mind, go for it, but there are much better deals out there.

edit: Read NewWestSupras post and if you wanted to go cheaper (not much) you could upgrade to the Lex AFM and 550cc injectors. Rule of thumb: Ask SM questions before dropping $800+ on a stock part.

[jetjock]

I've seen dumber. Much dumber.

[NewWestSupras]

For $650 you could get a Maftpro with speed density, wideband o2 etc. and forget about Mass air flow sensors. I'd give that some thought...

[Frank Rizzo]

LOL yeah me too, but still for me, I've stooped to a new all time low.

[Frank Rizzo]

I can definately get my money back. I only put a deposit on it so it would ship to my dealer and it would be instock because I kind of need this car running its my daily driver, I'm sure you know how it is.

[Frank Rizzo]

I have a noob question, can I just slap in a lexus maf without 550's or an AFC? I mean, I could put new injectors in too but then I would have to get new injector insulators and an upper intake manifold gasket from the dealer which takes time. I need to get to work! So can I just buy a lexus maf (new from the dealer, probably cheaper!!) and slap it in and upgrade to 550's later?

[IJ.]

I've seen dumber. Much dumber.
MUCH ;)

[Datsrboi]

Wow that sucks. I learn something new every day.. 800 bucks would have gotten me some rims with tires.

[Frank Rizzo]

Yeah no shit. LOL grrrrrr

[jetjock]

Ian: Much much ;)

Frank: Sure. You may have to tweak the lower chamber volume to get Vf right but it'll work fine. I ran that way for some time. Myself, I'd buy used electronics from someone if I were you. Lots cheaper.

Considering I warned against using that stuff not two days ago I might be inclined to agree with your dumbness but hey, shit happens. That said for a guy who uses the term IGBT I would've thought you'd known better ;)

[starscream5000]

There is a correct way to cleaning the Supras AFM, but it isn't legal IIRC, nor very friendly to the environment...

[Frank Rizzo]

You know what that means? LOL

So what exactly do I need for the lexus MAF? What year, model, engine?

Hey, I could have not said anything, but I wanted to share my experience so hopefully some dummy like me won't do it.

[jetjock]

I know what it means in the electronic context although that may not be how you're using it.

I forget the year Lexus but someone will chime in. The electronics are the same so you could always just stick them on your stock housing.

For those who insist on cleaning something that never needs cleaning do this: Buy a small piece of acrylic and test whatever you're going to use on it first. Put drop of acetone on it too. That way you can see what happens when you use the wrong solvent on an AFM.

[Frank Rizzo]

Does the lexus MAF use the stock harness?

[SevenMKIII]

Here you go, I got bored the last 10 minutes of work...

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50803&highlight=lex+afm Lexus AFM for sale

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49922&highlight=550cc+injectors 550cc Injectors for sale

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php (1987-1992 Supra Turbo Engine Intake Manifold Gasket Set) Entire Intake manifold gasket set for less than $10

You're welcome:slap:

[jetjock]

It does. I've never actually tested the CRC stuff but I know someone who had trouble with it. If hasn't crazed the optics your AFM may actually fix itself it you let it air out for a few days or bake it at 125 - 150 F for 45 minutes. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it happen. Worth a try. You have nothing to lose.

[Frank Rizzo]

LOL I actually had a thought of microwaving it for a split second, but I'd never do that.

I left it inside an air conditioned house all day to let it dry out, I slapped it back in and its still gone. I used like half the can lol.

[jetjock]

Microwaving is not a good idea ;). If you used a lot of solvent that's all the more reason to stick it in the oven for an hour. Make sure the pressure sensing hole at the top of the Karman Pillar is clear.

Slim chance but there might not even be anything wrong with it. Could be a connection problem. The only way to know for sure is to test it. I don't mean resistance checks either. I mean measure it on the car.

[buldozr]

dude, dont say your the dumbest supra owner ever, the 3s guys are watching......

[Frank Rizzo]

OK that was way over my head.

I like that pic, is that a boost gauge out of a WW2 airplane?

[supraman7mgte]

I've seen dumber. Much dumber.
I once told a girl I loved her,ooh,bad idea...:3d_frown:

[Frank Rizzo]

jetjock- I've owned the car for 2 years and I've never had it throw even one code, until the day I sprayed the MAF. Then code 31. You think it was a coincidence?

[IJ.]

It does. I've never actually tested the CRC stuff but I know someone who had trouble with it. If hasn't crazed the optics your AFM may actually fix itself it you let it air out for a few days or bake it at 125 - 150 F for 45 minutes. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it happen. Worth a try. You have nothing to lose. http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/swedish_chef.gif

[Frank Rizzo]

I don't know if my oven goes down that low.......

[robbo185]

yyea do NOT buy a new one from toyota. For that price you can run maft pro in speed density and not have to get 550cc injectors. However, when you do decide to upgrade you wont have to buy and fuel tuning devices because you already have the maft pro. Id look into that

[Frank Rizzo]

I really don't have time to take my downpipe off and install a wide band. I need this car on the road tomarrow! I don't even have a walbro fuel pump or any fuel mods so I don't think I need a maft pro speed density.

[jetjock]

As I said, slim chance. You did have to mess with the connector to clean it. It's possible you broke a wire or something. I just don't believe in throwing parts at things is all. A monkey can do that. You're not a monkey are you? ;)

That said in this case it sounds like you're right. Anyway, since you're pressed for time I'm just telling you what might work because I haven't tested the CRC stuff and don't know what's in it and again, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen an AFM brought back to life that way.

Edit: Damn, I missed that part about everything measuring infinity. Not good. I don't see how a particular solvent could cause that though. It's not the typical way cleaning kills them. Very odd.

Ian: lamo.....

[buldozr]

OK that was way over my head.

I like that pic, is that a boost gauge out of a WW2 airplane?

note to self: 3000gt/dodge stealth and supra guys are arch enemies.... not many supra owners know this, but its more of the mkiv guys that they hate, mostly of their ego, and yes, that is a wwII gauge, GOOD CALL! :icon_bigg

[Frank Rizzo]

jetjock- Thanks for taking the time to respond I really appreciate it. Yeah, thats what I thought about the infinite resistance....

buldozr- Ohhhhh, yeah most mitsu owners don't like my supra, maybe because it can kinda sorta keep up with them. I have alot of wwII stuff, like nazi belt buckles and eating utenzils. I also have an operators manual from a B-52 or something, can't remember have to dig is out of storage. Every page at the top says restricted, so it must be!!

[kawkoretsx]

I wonder just how many supra owners have walked into the parts store for something, and upon seeing the CRC MAF sensor cleaner, have bought it. Not because there's something wrong with their car, but because that CRC advertises that it is safe for all cars, and can improve gas mileage and horsepower. That's what happened to me. I knew before hand that the MAF sensor on the supra was delicate. At the time I was installing an intake and hardpipe kit. Went to Advance for something else, saw this stuff, and thought, wow they have stuff you can use to clean a MAF sensor, great. Preventative maintenance. Wrong.
So I wrote the company told them what happened, and they sent a check for the price of the cleaner and told me that the sensor was already bad due to the age of my car. I'm just wondering if we get some people together that have used this stuff and fried their MAF sensor if we could get reimbursed. I think I spent like 400 for a new MAF. This stuff should not be advertised as safe for all cars. Sorry for jackin the thread but this is wrong IMO and CRC should pay.

[mkIIIman089]

The thing is technically I don't think its a Mass Air Flow sensor... so they might have a pretty good head start on you guys.

[jetjock]

It's not a MAF and therein lies one of the problems. People who don't understand how our AFM works equate it with a hotwire, the device this product was designed to be used on and a device far more susceptible to contamination because of how it works. So susceptible that on most cars the ECU is programmed to clean it after every engine shutdown. It's not CRC's fault. In the end these things all boil down to ignorance on the part of the end user. Something that is, unfortunately, common to every endeavor.

I dunno about this cleaner because I've never tested it but the thing is we have people here who claim to have successfully used this stuff. Successfully in the sense it didn't killed the AFM. I doubt cleaning was ever needed. As I said, I think most AFMs die at the owner's hand because they're unable to diagnose the real problem. Muddying the waters even further is Frank's claim of infinity when measuring his. Having been deeply inside several of these gadgets and knowing how the circuitry works I see no way a solvent could cause that.

[kawkoretsx]

It's my understanding that there is a small mirror that vibrates inside the sensor. There is a vortex generator in front of this sensor that causes the air to swirl and the mirror vibrates at the same frequency. Call it MAF AFM whatever, it is still my opinion that there should be a warning on the can that states it is not safe for all sensors, because it isn't. The average joe that goes into a parts store doesn't know that our cars have a Karmen vortex type "air measuring sensor". From what I understand, and I could very well be wrong Toyota is the only company that used it. Why not put a warning on the can? Like I said there was nothing wrong with my car, ran great, thought cleaning the sensor might help get a more accurate signal, preventative maintenance.

JetJock: Have you ever gotten anything on the back side of a mirror and it takes the shinny stuff off the mirror, maybe some sort of solvent or oil? Wouldn't a situation like that cause the "measuring device" to not work. There are also members of this forum who have put on MHG's with no machine work and they hold, flukes, nothing more. You could go have unprotected sex with Pam Anderson, might not get Hepatitis. You still gonna wear a condom though, right? There should be a warning on the can.

[kawkoretsx]

Just got off the phone with CRC technical service, and they said "I don't recommend you use this because it can crack and/or tarnish the mirror" verbatim.

[jetjock]

The damage done to it by solvents is usually to the optics, not the circuit. The optics involved the emitter, photo transistor, and mirror. I understand your car may have been working fine but your belief you could make it run better or that the sensor needed maintenance was based on ignorance about how it works. That was your fault, not CRC's. Would you use Windex to clean plastic? If the average Joe (or anyone else) is going to mess with something he should know how it works. If not he should expect problems.

Aside from that fact I wouldn't touch Pam with your dick (let alone mine) if I'm understanding your analogy correctly she should have a warning on her? Or should I be the one smart enough to know better?

[kawkoretsx]

No you mentioned people using this product without a problem. That would be a fluke. The same thing could happen with Pam, you fucky fucky no disease.

If Windex said it would clean plastic without damaging it I would.

I kinda thought that if there was a little dirt on the mirror, this would help that, providing a more accurate signal, providing better performance.

[jetjock]

It's a digital signal. The amplitude is either going to be right or not. No in between. There would have to be an enormous amount of contamination on the mirror to effect it's mass and thus frequency. Myself, I normally measure stuff before messing with it. If the signal is correct I leave it alone and move on. Btw, other than being a philomath I'm as average joe as you can get ;)

[kawkoretsx]

You sir are no nornal joe, you are an SM expert, and one smart mofo. But my point still remains, there should be a warning. I don't gamble, ever, but if I did I'd lay a hundred bucks on someone toasting their meter if they use this stuff. You in the long run are also right, it could have been tested. But why would I test something that is working fine? Should have left it be, I know that now. But you still dont think there should be a warning on the can? How about anyone else?

[starscream5000]

MAF = AFM? :nono:

[kawkoretsx]

how many different air measuring devices are there? MAP is pretty specific, I mean AFM and MAF type, and how do you classify them?

[ATL88Supra]

should there be a warning? yes, is there one ? no, so as a supra owner its on you to be smart about it, i knew the second day i had my supra that washing the cars eng bay was a bad choice AFM got wet never agean have i done it in fact if i plan on geting water near or around it i take it off and store it some where dry eheh call it paranoa but i dont give a rats ass its a fragile part and alot of stuff can mess with it, so next time dont worry about cleaning it if it gets dirty in the 1st place there is a bigger problem then it just geting dirty if you are able to get it to work agean take note dont wash it dont fiddle with it dont even look at it the wrong way till you go maf pro

[OneJArpus]

Thats not dumb, but buying one from the deal is DUMB!.... Buy one cheap you can get one from 20 to 100 bucks.

[mkIIIman089]

^I would like to see anyone who can read that whole thing out loud without taking a breath.

I normally associate our Karman sensor as measuring the speed that air is going in, while MAF incorporates temperature and speed together to get the actual air mass. (I have no idea if that is correct, sounds close enough. ;))

[kawkoretsx]

good point ATL

[starscream5000]

I ran out of breath at "there is a bigger problem" ;).

[ATL88Supra]

wana pay me to punctuate, AND use propper grammar?



:evil2:

[Frank Rizzo]

Wow, I got 3 separate pms about MAF's from 3 different people. Thank you for all the support guys, I didn't reply to any of them because I am really perturbed right now. Long story short, new afm came in but the parts department closes at 5pm. I got there at 5:03.

Yes I know its dumber buying one from the dealer but I can't wait for a used one to ship and I don't trust discount auto stores, I have gotten more bad parts out of the box than good.

[buldozr]

Yes I know its dumber buying one from the dealer but I can't wait for a used one to ship and I don't trust discount auto stores, I have gotten more bad parts out of the box than good.

your car is used, so whats wrong with a used part of like kind and quality, I personally would rather buy a used part than a rebuilt from one of the local chain autoparts stores personally, going back to the dealer would be ideal but my car is not a ferrari, a used meter would work great for me :icon_razz

[mkIIIman089]

I think you'll be happy in the end that you bought a new one. I always am with stuff like that.

[buldozr]

I think you'll be happy in the end that you bought a new one. I always am with stuff like that.
i just couldnt justify paying 900 dollars via dealership(in my instance) for a rack and pinion for a car that isnt worth 3 grand... I guess I am just cheap and broke.

[Frank Rizzo]

mkIIIman089- Yeah I agree, thats part of the reason I go to the dealer, buy it right, buy it once.

And just a fyi my price is $652, I put $200 down so I have to pay $452 when I pick it up.

I really wanted a fluidyne radiator too, mother........

[supraman7mgte]

My "buddy" did the same thing on my old AFM. Tried doing me a favor by helping out,har har har...Jeez was I pissed. But he felt bad about it and paid for a used replacement. Short version,DONT CLEAN THEM! lol

[nosechunks]

you actually paid 652 bucks for a stock AFM? :aigo: :crazy1: :eek3:

[ATL88Supra]

just dont touch the damn thing from now on unless you want to spend 600+++ bucks every time you make a bo bo

[starscream5000]

Good deal, if everything is ok, you shouldn't have to worry about the AFM for as long as you own the car from here on out.

[Frank Rizzo]

Okey dokey, $652 later and its all better now. RUns perfect. Actually it sounds a little louder but that could be the placebo effect taking control.

Now starts the legal battle. I will not stop until A: I get $652 back from CRC (plus the $6 for their shit cleaner) B: They take CRC MAF cleaner off every shelf across the world or C: Put a label on the can that says "Do NOT use on 87-92 turbo supra MAF's".

Thanks again for all the support and advice even though I didn't take any of it LOL!

[SUPRASTEVE]

Hey it's ok man i did the same thing except i used simple green HAHAHA man did that suck it took about a month for me to find an MAF for my Turbo Supra.

Just ask some of the guys here they might have one.

I got mine for 160 at a place called TOYSPORT here in CAlifornia

A rebuilt one cost over 200 they don't make new ones for our cars

Just keep looking
BTW the car will have black smoke it stumbles big time when you touch throttle and will die if you don't keep your RPMS up

Also it will run great because it gets more fuel
yeah we ran it in that condition :naughty:

So just keep looking

[OneJArpus]

mkIIIman089- Yeah I agree, thats part of the reason I go to the dealer, buy it right, buy it once.

And just a fyi my price is $652, I put $200 down so I have to pay $452 when I pick it up.

I really wanted a fluidyne radiator too, mother........

dude send me 300 and i will get you a used one overnighted..... send me the 200 now n u can have it 2 day???

[SUPRASTEVE]

Hey it's ok man i did the same thing except i used simple green HAHAHA man did that suck it took about a month for me to find an MAF for my Turbo Supra.

Just ask some of the guys here they might have one.

I got mine for 160 at a place called TOYSPORT here in CAlifornia

A rebuilt one cost over 200 they don't make new ones for our cars

Just keep looking
BTW the car will have black smoke it stumbles big time when you touch throttle and will die if you don't keep your RPMS up

Also it will run great because it gets more fuel
yeah we ran it in that condition :naughty:

So just keep looking

WOW over 600 bucks
all i have to say is
DOH

[starscream5000]

Now starts the legal battle. I will not stop until A: I get $652 back from CRC (plus the $6 for their shit cleaner) B: They take CRC MAF cleaner off every shelf across the world or C: Put a label on the can that says "Do NOT use on 87-92 turbo supra MAF's".

All I can tell is you good luck...

[jetjock]

Yikes. I never thought you'd really go the dealer route but it's your car, your money, your choice. Fwiw I would've sold you one for a lot less and trust me, it would have been as good as new. I would've even calibrated it for you. Glad you got it working though.

PS: It's not a MAF ;)

[sleepwalker]

talking about dumb, i did the same too but i use WD40 :3d_frown:
the dealer wanted the same price so i got a used one for $250.
It was used but it sure beat the dealer price. :naughty:
It will be something i will never forget.

[mkIIIman089]

PS: It's not a MAF ;)
This doesn't seem to be sinking in for some reason. LOL

[starscream5000]

This doesn't seem to be sinking in for some reason. LOL


And that's exactly why he'll not win the law suit, it's not a MAF. How can you win a lawsuit on using a MAF cleaning product on an AFM? :dunno:

If it goes to a lawsuit, that's the first thing the company will research, they find out that the Mk3 supra has an AFM and not a MAF, then you just wasted your time and money by trying to sue.

[ATL88Supra]

well if takein care off the thing will last forever and a day

[Frank Rizzo]

This doesn't seem to be sinking in for some reason. LOL

Yeah I'm pretty thick. So it is an Air flow meter? Whats the difference between that and a Mass air flow sensor? Someone called it a Karman sensor, I think it was you. But the supra's AFM has the temperature sensor built into it so I don't get it.

[mkIIIman089]

Right, but it has a separate speed (the Karman part) and temp sensor. On a "hotwire" (MAF) sensor, basically just as it sounds has a heated wire. As it is cooled by the passing air (which will vary by the speed and temp) it will effectively get an air mass reading, instead of having to calculate it from 2 separate sensors.

Here is a little more specific explanation via good ol' wikipedia.


A hot wire mass airflow sensor determines the mass of air flowing into the engine’s air intake system. This is achieved by heating a wire with an electric current that is suspended in the engine’s air stream, not unlike a toaster wire. The wire's electrical resistance increases with the wire’s temperature, which limits electrical current flowing through the circuit. When air flows past the wire, the wire cools decreasing its resistance, which in turn allows more current to flow through the circuit. As more current flows, the wire’s temperature increases until the resistance reaches equilibrium again. The amount of current required to maintain the wire’s electrical resistance is directly proportional to the mass of air flowing past the wire. The integrated electronic circuit converts the measurement of current into a voltage signal which is sent to the ECU.

If air density increases due to a pressure or temperature change, but the air volume remains constant, the denser air will remove more heat from the wire indicating a higher mass airflow. Unlike the vane meter's paddle sensing element, the hot wire responds directly to air density. This sensor's capabilities are well suited to support the gasoline combustion process which fundamentally responds to air mass, not air volume. (See stoichiometric.)

[foreverpsycotic]

if i saw this earlier and you were a NA i would have GIVEN you my NA afm for free. and if i were you, i would check the boards here or ask around if anyone has xyz part. those of us that own supras in CT are pretty well stocked :)

[nosechunks]

and to follow up MK3man's informative post...

The Mk3 Supra "AFM" METERS speed and temperature, reports back to the computer witch calculates air flow. Theres a small reflective film that vibrates when air moves past it, the higher the air speed, the higher the frequency. When you attempted to clean the AFM, most likely the film was damaged therefore the "speed" or frequency was either missing or erroneous.

Since the computer uses Speed and Temperature to Calculate airflow when one of those signals are missing airflow cannot be calculated, or is calculated at zero (based on a Zero Speed reading) totally throwing off fuel mixture and causing your results.

MAF sensors, Sence the density, speed, and temprature of the intake charge, calculate Air Flow and report airflow (grams/sec. or whatever they use) to the computer.

Air Flow Meters or AFM's, Meter speed and temperature, send that to the computer and let the computer come up with the Air flow reading based on the speed and temprature (and resulting density).