hks metal head gasket

[supramen]

can u reuse a metal head gasket? and arp bolts?

[plaaya69]

Yes you can reuse both depending on the condition of the headgasket. You just have to make sure that you prepare the Metal Headgasket right so thats its nice and clean or it will not last very long.

[starscream5000]

You must take ALL the Viton coating off every layer of the MHG before you can reuse them. Once that is done, I would personaly put a light layer of permatex on the MHG, let it sit till it's tacky, then reinstal. If there are any signs of damage to the actuall MHG though, trash it, buy something else ;).

[suprarich]

i also like to measure the bolts before reusing to be safe.

[starscream5000]

That's another reason why I like ARP studs. If you torque them correctly after your final pass, then your retorque after heat cycling, you can use them again and again as long as they aren't physically damaged (checking for stretch is still a great thing to do though that most people will overlook). Best thing about reusing ARP studs is if they are ok and installed correctly as previously mentioned, no retorque is required after your final pass.

[TurboWarrior]

woah you have to retorq them after a heat cycle? Should i do that?

[starscream5000]

More around after 4-5 heat cycles preferrably, this is with studs of course. If you haven't done it yet, then hop to it asap.

[TurboWarrior]

thanks starscream. I will im glad you're around :)

[starscream5000]

No probs ;). How long have you been running on those studs w/o retorque? Driving preference and boost setting?

[Idealsupra]

actually...you DO NOT have to retorque STUDS if you torque sequenced them properly when putting them on. only BOLTS.

as for the original question...yes and yes BUT IMO spend the extra 120 bucks and just get a new mhg because reusing one leaves a LOT of variables in play for the "user" to mess up.

[starscream5000]

The studs have to be heat cycled. After that, they may loosen up some, that's why I suggest a retorque.

[Idealsupra]

The studs have to be heat cycled. After that, they may loosen up some, that's why I suggest a retorque.

ive never had to retorque studs and i know many others who havent either...if they are stretch sequenced properly when putting them on they shouldnt back out due to heat. thats another reason the studs are better.

the bolts on the other hand...yeah im sure you know lol.


*of course going in and checking the studs isnt a BAD idea...i just dont find it necessary...in fact i dont believe ARP says to do that on the studs instructions while i do believe it IS on the bolt instructions. :dunno:

[starscream5000]

How do you measure stretch on a Head Stud??

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=465936&postcount=9

Edit:: This is also why I would take a used, heat cycled set of ARP head studs that are mechanically and physically in great condition over a brand new set any day ;).

[Idealsupra]

How do you measure stretch on a Head Stud??

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=465936&postcount=9

sorry i meant torque sequenced (dont know why i said stretch)...however that point of how do you measure stretch on a stud is exactly right.....which is why is torqued down properly you shouldnt have to go back in. with the bolts even when sequenced down after heat cycles the stretching that may occur will be more evident and will require the retorque.

i can tell you ive installed probably over 50 mhgs with studs and have never retorqued a single one...and never had any problems with them at varying levels of boost etc....

the arp bolts ive seen have had to be retorqued.

[starscream5000]

It may not be a requirement, but it sure does give the person driving the car that extra piece of mind. It never hurts to triple check your work. Any bolt/stud can loosen up if they havn't been heat cycle before installation, like I said, just piece of mind that I would follow ;)

[Idealsupra]

It may not be a requirement, but it sure does give the person driving the car that extra piece of mind. It never hurts to triple check your work. Any bolt/stud can loosen up if they havn't been heat cycle before installation, like I said, just piece of mind that I would follow ;)

THAT i can agree with. like i said.....it isnt a BAD thing to do ;)

now....whered that horse go....heh

[starscream5000]

I'm still hammering it ;). And it wasn't actually a horse, it turned out to be a donkey in discuise (thus that's why it didn't want to be lead to the water).

[TurboWarrior]

The studs have to be heat cycled. After that, they may loosen up some, that's why I suggest a retorque.

Lots of warm ups and drives since i got the motor in. Ive gone up to 16psi recently and ive pushed it hard a handful of times. Safe to retorque? I have studs not bolts.

[starscream5000]

I still suggest doing it, but It's your choice. There's nothing wrong with retorquing, just don't exceed the recommended specs ;). Let us know if they did indeed loosen up some if you do it.

[TurboWarrior]

The shop i sent the motor to did the torquing. I told them 88ft/lbs. ill let you know if they are less. Thanks again

[starscream5000]

Was that with ARP moly lube?

[TurboWarrior]

yes it was. I hope they did it properly. Id say he did hes a very picky guy with motors

[starscream5000]

It's torqued a little high if it was at 88 ft/lbs, but you should still be ok. You are not exceeding the stud's rated strength.

[IJ.]

I always retorque always.... ;)

[TurboWarrior]

well i did a lot of research at the time and it seemed 88ft/lbs was the prefered torque for the mhg. I had a thread on it on sf or here i can't remember. Some people were running 100ft/lbs + and they SAID it was ok. But anyway i hope it holds up.

and I will retorque always from now on.

[jdub]

Well...did your research include these?

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/5011572564.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4817740)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11321284934.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5304517)

APR is very specific about torque spec and it changes depending on the lube used. For the old studs...81 ft/lbs w/ moly, 105 ft/lbs w/ 30W motor oil. For the new studs...80 ft/lbs w/ moly, 120 ft/lbs w/ 30W motor oil. Read this (including the side links):
http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechInstall.html

As previously stated, 88 ft/lbs using moly for lube is likely not going to hurt anything, but you are cutting in to the 25% yield strength margin ARP designs for it's studs. There is a ton of different opions on torque for ARP hardware...suggest you listen to the folks that made them ;)


I always retorque always.... ;)

So do I...wonder why that is :rolleyes:

[TurboWarrior]

Wow 5 retroques

I should have read that. I actually just gave the guy the box. I never opened it. jdub i read most of it. I get that the torque seems to be all in the lube. Im glad i didn't go higher than 88 thats for sure.

Its safe to back off one bolt at a time on the metal hg when retorquing right?

[jdub]

The lube is the most important factor...changes things rather dramatically. The 5 torque cycles talked about in the ARP link is for the initial installation...once the motor has been heat cycled, it becomes moot. The purpose is to reduce the coefficient of friction on the threads to get the most accurate torque reading when using a wrench.

When you do a re-torque, all you have to do is just "crack" the nut counter clockwise. Then torque back to spec...in your case, I would use the 88 ft/lbs since that is what the studs were heat cycled at. Use the TRSM pattern.

To be honest, I have never seen studs loosen up after properly torqued the 1st time...doesn't mean they can't loosed up though. I have seen bolts (both ARP and stock) require a re-torque due to head expansion. I always do a re-torque (studs or bolts) as a matter of good engine building practice...it's a habit that I have to make absolutely sure that head is down like it should be ;)

[IJ.]

I have ;)

[mk3forme]

Ok that kinda ticks me off. Why does the instructions that come with the studs like Jdub posted not say anything about 5 cycles? I used three. Since I have already reached my final torque, does that mean that redoing them with 5 cycles would be a waste of time? No the motor hasnt been heat cycled.

Also when I was going through the torque cycles I was confused on how some nuts I would have to turn more and pull harder than others to reach the next torque. I was wondering if the arp lube got down in between the washer and nut on some but not others. Or maybe i need to get my torque wrench calibrated although its not that old and hasnt been used that much either. Any one else noticed this?

[jdub]

Three should be enough. All you are doing is minimizing the coefficient of friction between the nut/stud threads to get an accurate torque. Why ARP doesn't provide the detail on the sheet? :dunno:

[suprarich]

They don't provide it because they fiqure an installer would know.

[mk3forme]

I realize that this is my first engine build and all. But this is important information. Just as much so or more than the info they do include in the instructions. I wouldnt think a manufacturer would expect a customer to research their website on techniques on how to use their product when it comes with instructions. I assumed, like many others im sure, that this was all the info needed. Oh well whats done is done. Thanks for the encouragement Dub