Replacement Speakers Sound Worse-Advice Please

[ChadMKIII]

Hey, soooo I replaced the stock front 6.5"s on my 91 with Pioneer TS-A1671R 3-ways (clicky to see them (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6981876&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03076&id=1099388425823)). The speakers are 220W max, 35W RMS. I've only replaced the passenger side right now, and I'm noticing I actually like the sound coming from the stockers better, and they seem to have better range and quality all around.

Why I Chose Them Over the Infinity's I Planned to Buy:
Yes, I know was advised the more cones will sound worse-read on. I was planning on spending the extra 20 bucks on Infinity Reference's, but they had even less low end support than these Pioneers did, and since I have no sub these will be the base of my system and be providing all of my bass support and mid's as well, so since the Reference's sounded very high and bright and tenor-y I decided they wouldn't sound good enough by themselves. Plus, their RMS rating was higher than my deck could even provide max, so I figured they wouldn't be able to use enough of their potential to sound good. The Pioneers seemed to have a good deal better low range so I went with them.
The two I was comparing:
Infinity (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7730226&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03076&id=1140392384625)
Pioneer (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6981876&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03076&id=1099388425823)

The Problem:
So, after I've been driving around now, I turned the Fade to the front and have been flipping the balance back and forth, and have noticed much more clear, powerful sound throughout all ranges, as well as more volume, coming from my stock. My headunit is a Kenwood w/ built-in MOSFET amp, 45W x 4 max, 22W x 4 RMS (see here (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7660514&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03066&id=1134701325130)). I switched the settings to 6.5" speakers from OEM speakers, still sounds crappy. I've adjusted every last little thing in every single combination and permutation and whatever other -ations and the stocks still sound better.

Can It Be?:
So, if I had a more powerful, external amp would that make them sound better than the stocks/improve them noticeably? Does anyone think the Reference's would end up sounding better than stock/the new Pioneers if adjusted differently? Any advice? Cuz I'm seriously considering just going back to stock, I really don't have the money for a terrific sound system but I want it to sound better than it did. I just have a hard time believing that the new ones would sound worse than the already terrible stocks....

Any ideas would be appreciated!!! :(

Cliffs:
Replaced stock speakers, running off crappy Kenwood deck w/ built in 45x4 MOSFET amp, the new Pioneers sound worse than the stockers. Whats going on?

[speed]

at 35wrms, an external amp won't be much of an improvement. Have you tried adjusting crossovers and equalizer? Are you sure the new speakers are properly sealed in the pods?

[ChadMKIII]

Yep, played for literally an hour on the EQ, I'm sure I tried every possible combination. Lol. No x-overs on it, that I know of.
And they're installed exactly the same as the stock, just tightly screwed into the stock pod.

[mattjk]

cheap speaker will sound cheap. I don't know why that's so hard to understand... expecially big cheap speakers. I always tell people, go smaller and more expensive... whatever.

[ChadMKIII]

cheap speaker will sound cheap. I don't know why that's so hard to understand... expecially big cheap speakers. I always tell people, go smaller and more expensive... whatever.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting even really good quality, but I did expect them to be a significant improvement over stock.

Anyone think the $100 Infinity's will sound better and be able to provide enough bass for the whole system?

[mattjk]

NO! Get a used set of mb quart reference 5 1/4 on ebay. The last gen references... they go for about $125.

Installation plays a big role also. You need a good seal, and I don't mean the back of the speaker... the seal of the front speaker to the door panel opening it where you want a good seal.

You need a sub if you want bass.

[mattjk]

here you go, this is a fantastic deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-MB-QUART-RCE-213-REFERENCE-5-25-COMPONENT-SPEAKERS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ38646QQhashZitem270072093271QQihZ017QQitemZ270072093271QQrdZ1

[suprahero]

Now that's what I call above and beyond the call of duty............good job Matt............lol

[GotToyota?]

Pioneers are good speakers for the front. Pioneers are designed for more depth/bass, which is normally better for rear speakers.

A system is supposed to get the best sound from the front, as if you were in a concert. The Infinity's will be better then the Pioneers, but not as good as the smaller speakers Matt suggested.

[ChadMKIII]

Thanks Matt, I'll look into those.
So you're saying those will truly sound much better than the stocks.
And when you said good seal to the door panel opening, you mean it needs to be sealed up against the metal hole? Or something else...?

Also, those look REALLY deep. Do you have them, or know of any problems using ones that deep. Won't they be a bit close to the glass? I'll ask for mounting depth from the seller, but sheesh.

And thanks so much for looking that up, I'll second what Jay said!

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

WOW...those are a fanTAStic deal...I almost wish I hadn't just bought my eclipse components :(

[ChadMKIII]

So if those MB Quarts are 100W RMS / 200W max each, and my headunit can only get 18~22W RMS & 45W max per chan, will that be enough to power those speakers well or will I need an amp to make it sound good? And I found these: 6.5" MB Quarts (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MB-QUART-6-1-2-PWE-160-PW-SERIES-PW-E-160-CROSSOVERS_W0QQitemZ200062259449QQihZ010QQcategoryZ38646QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) Does that look good? Or is there some particular reason I should get a 5.25 if I can afford the 6.5s? Are the Reference's a lot better than that model?

[speed]

Max wattage means nothing. never buy or rate anything by its max rating... always go by the RMS value. you shouldn't need an external amp for them to sound good, but it always helps

[buckshotglass]

here you go, this is a fantastic deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-MB-QUART-RCE-213-REFERENCE-5-25-COMPONENT-SPEAKERS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ38646QQhashZitem270072093271QQihZ017QQitemZ270072093271QQrdZ1

yur the man Matt. thats a great deal. I paid over 200 for those a few years ago. Huge fan of the Quart speakers.

[mattjk]

an external amp (read: high quality external amp) will always sound better than the internal radio amp. It will have more power reserve and damping factor to produce a more effortless and cleaner (less distortion. distortion = harsh tinny output) weighted sound.

Anyhow, yeah, that is an awesome deal for those speakers. I'm going to have to order a set next week. I love those speakers.

[Big Wang Bandit]

Can I have your stock speakers Matt? I wanna see if they sound better than the others I have in there now lol



When I move to LA, we shall do my whole stereo system

[ChadMKIII]

Mmk.

So last set of questions:

-Those 6.5" Quarts I posted, is that model good/similar to the Ref's or should I stick with References?

-Would there be a reason other than price to go w/ the 5.25 Ref vs. 6.5 Ref?

-What exactly did you mean about the seal to the door opening earlier?

And thanks again for the help.

[7MsuprO]

Yea I have the speakers Matt posted and theyre phenomenal. Just thought id throw that out there.

[annoyingrob]

If you don't like the Pioneers, you won't like the Infinity References. Speaker selection is a very personal thing. The fact that you said you thought they sounded very tinny indicates that you don't like the hard-cone tweeters they use. Infinity speakers use the same tweeter design, and will also sound very harsh to you in the high-range frequencies. If you're going to get a new set of speakers, look for something with a soft dome tweeter. It will sound much better to you.

As for an external amplifier, let's put it this way. If the Pioneer speakers don't sound very good to you at lower volume levels on the HU's amp, then they still won't sound good to you with an external amp.

I wouldn't chose a set of door speakers based solely on how low they play. A lower playing midrange will not make up for the lack of a subwoofer, no matter what you do to it. All you're going to do is distort your midrange more and more.

Whatever speakers you get, I would suggest that you don't make them play any lower the about 80hz. Any lower then that, and all you're going to be doing is causing excessive cone movement, distorting your midrange.

[iwannadie]

i have some Cheap sony xplodes in my doors, 5x9. took some work to make it fit and redo the door panel. but hey its loud and cheap and looks ok.

loose the stock speaker pods and make your own ;)

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Umm...5x9? I think not. 5x7/6x8 or 6x9?

[iwannadie]

Umm...5x9? I think not. 5x7/6x8 or 6x9?


why not 5x9?

[toyo4life]

I've never heard of anyone making a 5x9. Ovals come in 4x10, 4x6, 5x7, 6x8, 6x9 and a couple of odd ball 6x10.
The reason it seems the stockers sound better is because they are mounted in a tuned enclosure specific to their theile/small parameters. Most modern replacments are not designed to reproduce low end freq. Even if their specs say they extend down to say 30 hrtz it doesn't mean they do it well. Replacement speaker manufacturers assume/want you to buy subs. As far as a recomendation I recently Install a pair of Pioneers Rev series 6x8 into a customers car and I was very surprise by the low end extension. These speakers feature a very large soft dome tweeter. and a real pasiive crossover attached to the mag. If you really don't want a sub see if you can listen to a set of these. I am going to try to fit 2 pairs of these into my supra . they should fit with some sort of baffle replacing the enclosure.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Are those the kevlar cone pioneers? (yellow cone)

Oh and it's nice to have someone else here who knows their audio shit :D Welcome aboard ye scurvy!

[toyo4life]

Yeah the yellow cones. And if any bod has any audio questions please feel free to ask. I'm a pro installer with 16 years under my belt and over 8000 installs. I hate to see people waste their money or time.

[annoyingrob]

I hate to see people waste their money or time.
Ok, can you please tell people your personal opinion on rear fill :)

[csr ma71]

Sometimes stock speakers knock as good as aftermarket speakers, if the aftermarket ones suck or if they're 4 inch. Either ways you should get a decent sub and an amp. If you want I got both for sale.

[ChadMKIII]

Sometimes stock speakers knock as good as aftermarket speakers, if the aftermarket ones suck or if they're 4 inch. Either ways you should get a decent sub and an amp. If you want I got both for sale.
You have PM re: amp for sale.

[suprarx7nut]

If I'm off at all, please correct any of these statements:

Already been said, but Infinity>Pioneer but similar sound quality. *Edit* "Characteristics, not quality"

Amps just help to eliminate distortion when you turn it up(I.E. if it sounds bad at lower volumes now, an amp wont do shit.)

Any set of decent component speakers will give you more bass and clearer mids/highs.

[csr ma71]

You have PM re: amp for sale.

Responded. Amps and subs don't add much weight in the grand scheme of things, plus they're really easy to install and you can hear the music with the windows down.

[toyo4life]

Hey annoyingrob. In response to your question about rear fill... I feel that is a really subjective topic . If I were designing a system for IASCA or USAC competitions I would say rear fill is supposed to just give you ambeiance and depth of feild or staging. Kind of like sitting in the 7th row at a concert, the main sound is supposed to come from in front of you.... But... I don't like going to concerts. The bands never sound as good. I grew up in the night clubs of New York and Miami so Ilike to be surrounded by my music. I also play the drums so I like my music to sound like I'm standing in the middle of the band.
As far as what I like or rather what i think would be ideal , I would love to be able to build a system for a car using just 5 speakers .
2 large compression drivers running about 30-50 watts
2 10" or 12" light weight mid bass drivers at about 100-150 watts
1 solo X kicker in a sealed box running about 2400 watts
this would pretty much sound like a night club on wheels but really wouldn't be practical in a Supra.
I want to keep my Supra stock looking so I'll be doing 4 6x8's in the stock loc's and maybe a 12" kicker L7 .

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

uhh how will 6x8's look stock? Besides, oval speakers sound like shiz in my opinion. I would say if you're going to go with a kicker, get a compvx, not an L7. Square subs are all hype. "More surface area!" Horseshit. Corners aren't gonna do shit. Compvx's are the same basic build as an l7 in a round package, which lends itself MUCH better to custom installs.

just my .02

[toyo4life]

Um ... draw a 15" circle... then draw a 15" square ... Which has the greater area? More cone area = more air moved per excursion. And the comp vr and the L7 have very different types of cone mass. I've installed every style kicker there is into many different cars each has their purpose. No speaker and I mean no speaker is the "best" for every app. The comp vr series is a good choice if you want high output and can afford the space for a vented enclosure.
As far as the comment about ovals. First of all if you read earlier in the thread they would have to be mounted on custom baffles behind the stock grills. As far as sound quality goes most coaxes sound like crap round or oval.
But that is due to the cheap mids and tweeters and lack of proper crossovers not their shape.
Let me let you in on a little secret so that you can get past you fear of odd shaped speakers.... The reason speakers are mostly round has little to do with sound or tonal quality. It has to do with ease of manufacturing. It is easier to machine round parts than anyother shape.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Well there Mr. Attitude...

1.) You sure are right...and I wrote gullible on the ceiling too! :nono: the whole square sub "MORE SURFACE AREA!" thing is bullshit. Reason being, the corners (the only extra surface area over a round sub) are almost flat, which leaves them not being able to "scoop" too much air.

2.) If you re-read like an intelligent human being I never even mentioned a comp vr I believe the speaker I mentioned was a comp vx. Evidently you haven't installed every kicker speaker.

3.) Since you admit co-ax's sound like shit, then why use them? Man up, do some custom work and throw some components in there.

4.) Let me let you in on a little secret, oval speakers produce more distortion, it's a proven fact.

TTL: 1
T4L: 0

[toyo4life]

comp vr vx whatever both need larger enclosure than the L7.

Scoop the air ????? WTF??? some of the loudest systems on earth are flat piston type speakers . Cone shape doesn't cause distortion cone flex does. Proven fact, where?

The vr and vx share the L7 voicecoil and motor structure elements but do not have the cone density. therefore cannot compress air as well with out cone deflection.
As far as maning up and doing custom work it would be easier to do components 6's or 5's in the door and domes on the dash. But the Idea wa to get good midbass response and maintain a stock look . The custom work would be in tucking a 6x8 or maybe 8" round in the place of the stock 4.
And I said MOST ovals and coaxes sound like crap but did you read why?
It is pretty well know that the best sound quality is acheived when all the frequencies come from one focal point. thats why a lot of high end components give you the option of mounting the tweeter in the center of the driver like a coax. Usually that only works well in a car where the speeker is mount higher in the door like in a supra.
If you want to dicuss speaker theory and design I'm more than happy to give my opinion. But the tone your taking is arguementative especially with the little score thing you've got going on. I've been a professional installer for 16 years, competed and judged in IASCA and USAC. I've built demo cars for Stiger, PIE and Cadence and have over 8,000 installs worth of experience .
As I stated earlier in this thread speaker selection is subjective. Most of your statements have been in absolutes. This sucks thats the best. This leads me to believe that you haven't seen enough to know better . The only absolutes I have seen in this business is no speaker is the best , no amp is the best and no electronics are the best. whether its price , quality or pursose al have their pros and cons.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

I never said anything about "this or that is the best", not once. I believe in the same basic fundamentals you do, it seems; no speaker is best, they each have their own application.

I see where you're coming from about the flat piston drivers, but with a "scoop" as I like to call it, there is more air to be moved. The way I like to think of it is like this, how much soup can a dinner plate hold as opposed to a bowl?

I'll have to try to find the article showing distortion differences between oval and coaxial speakers. Wherever it was, they took 2 of the same make/model of speakers, one in 6.5 and one in 6x9 and measured the distortion determining the oval had higher levels of distortion.

From what I've been taught, sound is best reproduced using the fewest number of drivers possible, each with it's own assigned frequency range. Where I'm going with this, I don't know. Another thing I was taught was that as long as you keep the tweeter within a distance that is equal to the size of the woofer, your imaging will stay true (I.E. 5.25" component set; place tweeter no more than 5.25 inches away from woofer).

If I came off as argumentative, I'm sorry, but IMO you came off with the attitude first. The score thing was a joke btw.

Curiosity is striking: who do you install for?

[toyo4life]

Right now I'm operations manager for Auto Security and Audio Pro. We're a expiditor to car dealerships. For 12 years before that I work for Auto Action dist. out of Union NJ. I also freelance at a couple of local shops and marinas.But i really don't have time for that much anymore ASAP, the company I'm with now is growing really fast . I need to hire 2 instalers this month and will probably need 4 more by april.
If I had to venture a guess I would say that you work for a big chain like Best buy or Circiut City. CC tried to hire me about 4-5 years ago to manage one of their roadshops but they only offered like 14.75 an hour. Right now I'm offering 17 an hour for installers but its hard to find good people.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Ooooh you're good ;) I do work for CC, but only because when I applied at some of the higher end shops...well I actually had one laugh in my face because I'm 18; I promptly told him to fuck off and left.

I've been into car audio ever since the age of 14. Started installing when I was around 16 and I've been in love since then. I kinda do a little bit of both at CC (Sales and install).

If you're thinking "jeez this guy thinks an L7 is the best sub on the planet" think again, I actually would stay away from almost everything we sell at CC. Maybe a source unit since I get them so cheap (Eclipse AVN7000 for 1200 anyone?) Im actually looking into picking up a TREO SSi 12" and a zapco reference 750.1 :-P

Anyway, sorry for the "argumentative" attitude once again, hopefully we audiophiles can get along from now on :D

[toyo4life]

hey no problem . Any way I've kinda gotten away from using truly high end equipment in most cars because once you get past a certian point you can only hear the difference while not in motion and sitting quiet and still. Not really what most supra owners do in their cars heh? hey If you ever get out to the east coast and need a job let me know.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Hell at this point I'd damn near move anywhere for work...circuit city is killing me with this 8.75/hour bullshit

[miekedmr]

Let me let you in on a little secret so that you can get past you fear of odd shaped speakers.... The reason speakers are mostly round has little to do with sound or tonal quality. It has to do with ease of manufacturing. It is easier to machine round parts than anyother shape.
Watch this for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

Speakers have round cones because they spread stress symetrically and the net result is compressing or stretching the cone exactly along its axis of travel which its very resistant to. In other words it holds its shape best under pressure. Other shapes, ESPECIALLY squares will twist and distort under pressure more than a similiarly weighted round cone because the further edges and corners are recieving an inproportionate amount of stress.
That causes distortion, and is why I think kicker square subs are stupid. They were made mainly to attract sales on looks and not merits, just like a lot of car audio junk.
You might say the distortion is so insignificant that it's worth the extra cone area, but I'm going to disagree on that. Just get a bigger round cone and find room if you need more area.
For people that care about sound quality... money is better spent on a dayton reference sub from PE, which has a nice round AL cone, shorting rings in the motor structure, etc.

[Justin]

I have those Yellow Cone pioneers off my 500/1. they sound really good, I'm pretty happy with them. I need to do a little bit of sound deadening in the doors, and a little more work but I think once all is said and done they will sound really nice.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

the kevlar cone pioneers do sound really good for coax's I'll give 'em that...but I still love the eclipse comps :D

[toyo4life]

All the talk about subs is really off topic here anyway. this thread was about replacing the stock 4" speakers. I was just talking about the solo x as a part of a system to dup. a club type sound. None of the speakers I mentioned would be practical in any car much less a supra. The solo requires 12 cubic ft and the horns for a copression driver can have an apature of 2 square ft. Not really car install friendly. As far as oval cone distortion most systems will not drive kevlar cones to distort .
If you were to close your eyes and play them at the same output level while in a moving supra or most cars you could not tell the difference between what shape the speaker was.
There are better values than Kicker out there.
Round speakers are easier to work with.
My favorite components are a dicontinued model from Oz Audio.
My point in posting here in the first place was that at my cost of $68 a pair, the pioneer 6x8 kevlars are hard to beat.

[toyo4life]

By the way Justin your car is way clean.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

$68!? Holy hell where'd you see that at? The 6 1/2's at my work are $100, the 6x9s are $150!

And yes, I agree, Justin's car IS way clean :) He works at a CC too :-P

[toyo4life]

Remember , I work for a electronics distributor. we retail them for like $240 installed.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Oh yeah, haha. Hey I don't suppose you guys deal in TREO or RE do you?

[annoyingrob]

If I'm off at all, please correct any of these statements:

Already been said, but Infinity>Pioneer but similar sound quality. *Edit* "Characteristics, not quality"

Amps just help to eliminate distortion when you turn it up(I.E. if it sounds bad at lower volumes now, an amp wont do shit.)

Any set of decent component speakers will give you more bass and clearer mids/highs.
Sounds about right. The important thing to note about aftermarket speakers, they all sound different. Try to listen to a bunch, and chose ones that sound good to you.