HPF full face clutch disc slipping

[mk3ukr]

I have major problem when trying to drag race with full face HPF feramic clutch. I had RPS 3200lb 6-puck clutch for 3000 miles, then purchased HPF full face feramic disc to use with used RPS 3200lb pressure plate. Fidanza flywheel has some scores and burn marks, but not very bad.
I slip clutch for 1-2 seconds when launch, when I switch to 2nd, then 3rd and 4th gears rpm go straight to redline, below is datalog. Redline was set to 6600rpm, rpm graph is red line on the top
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4227/aemlogjv1.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aemlogjv1.jpg)
If I launch less agressively it starts slipping in 3rd or 4th gear. There is absolutely no smell of burning clutch, I am puzzled here. Probably I should have bought 6 puck feramic disc, it is more suitable for drag racing
Any ideas?
Thanks

[kwnate]

I'm having similar problems with the hpf disc and lightweight flywheel... Call Josh and tell him to stop selling their discs to people with lightwieght flywheels. I think thats where the problem lies. Mine stuck to the flywheel...

[IJ.]

My "Guess" on this issue is the Disc and Flywheel insert have similar materials in their friction surfaces and when slipped build up enough heat to friction weld!
(This is how a lot of turbine shafts are made they spin the shaft then while spinning press it into the wheel then bring it to a stop)

[mk3ukr]

Thanks guys for the replies. Not to sound stupid - if clutch and flywheel inserts friction weld why it just slips like crazy. It slips like wheels suspended in the air. If I drop the clutch from 3500 rpm it doesn't slip so badly in 2nd gear and higher. I even don't try to launch from 5000rpm.
If I glazed clutch disc is there any chance it's surface will be restored back to more or less normal after some time of normal city driving? Never had problems with clutch, hence these questions

[IJ.]

Only thing that comes to mind is the front seal in the gearbox has died and has polluted the disc.....

[mk3ukr]

Tranny 1 month after rebuild, with new seal of course. :confused:
Have to pull it and see condition of the disc, I hate to return to RPS 6-puck, too bad for gearbox

[IJ.]

I had a new seal in a rebuilt w58 fail......

[mk3ukr]

Ian, any idea is Fidanza flywheel resurfaceable? I don't mind to buy new inserts but it takes too long to get it here to Ukraine.

P.S. Another thought - possibly I overfilled tranny with oil, I filled it from top and it takes too long for Redline shockproof to start seeping from overflow hole. I could easily put 0.5 ltr more than necessary

[IJ.]

Vlad: Sorry no idea!

I think it's coated with something and not just a ground surface to begin with?

[mk3ukr]

Ian, thanks for comments :)

[upgradedsupra]

I have heard nothing but nad things about the Feramic. I personnaly have run the "cer"amic disk for a year with many passes at the track and along with the SCC event and cruisin on top of that. I run an OEM flywheel. Car has put down 665&651TQ. We will see if it can hold my new power goals

Duane

[IJ.]

Ceramic Solid Twin here and no issues at all other than it's a squealing noisy bitch until broken in! :)

[kwnate]

Ceramic Solid Twin here and no issues at all other than it's a squealing noisy bitch until broken in! :)Sounds like my girlfriend...

[mk3ukr]

Yesterday I pulled tranny to see what is wrong with clutch. Disc melted and some material adhered to the pressure plate. Flywheel suffered less.

[born2drv]

mk3ukr -- how much power are you running? also, when did you get your full face feramic?

HPF has assured me it will hold 500 no problems, and up to 600hp/tq. they also said that the new full face feramics are better then the older version (they were redesigned or manufactured differently sometime about 6 months ago I believe). So maybe you have the older version?

I chose it over the 6 puck because I still want to be able to slip it and drive it like a stock clutch (especially since I live in california and in a very hilly area). mine is being installed as we speak, hopefully it will be done mon/tues, just waiting for my short shifter.

i'm right around 450 hp/tq now and i don't see myself going much over 500 in the short term, so i hope it holds for now. but i'd be very interested to know how old yours is, and how much power you're running.

also i plan to use the stock flywheel based on what i've read from kwnate, upgradedsupra and others...

[VanSupra]

Stock flywheel, stock disc with RPS 3200lb @ 566rwhp 500torque, no problems with the disc at this power level. It will be fed more soon.

I should add that I launch my 3915lb car @ 7500rpm slipping the clutch through first then bang the living sh_t out of it through 4th gear like every guy should. :)

[lintlars]

Ive had both the fullface and I now have the 6 puck Feramic I had the fullface version weld on me, Ill be taking the 6 puck to the track in a few days Ill keep ya posted on how it holds up MAKE SURE you take HPF to task and get a replacment or a refund since they also failed to tell you about the issues concerning this clutch and lightweight flywheels.

[mk3ukr]

mk3ukr -- how much power are you running? also, when did you get your full face feramic?

...

I never dynoed my car, hope it makes close to 600 flywheel hp. My setup is in my signature. Site is not updated, I added recently race prepped head with Ferrea valvetrain parts. Car is VERY light, that particular run was with boost set 1.5bar, it went only to 1.2 bar because engine was not loaded due to slipping clutch.
I tried this clutch when tuned EMS on 1.7 bar on 3rd gear, it held very well.
I think feramic disc is not suitable at all for drag racing. Aluminium flywheel was not an issue for me, Fidanza FW inserts in better condition than 3200lb pressure plate.
Clutch disc was purchased in April this year. Before I ran 6-puck RPS clutch for about 3.5K miles. So, I left used 3200lb pressure plate and changed disc only, run it in for about 400 miles. :icon_conf

[drjonez]

...then purchased HPF full face feramic disc to use with used RPS 3200lb pressure plate. Fidanza flywheel has some scores and burn marks, but not very bad. ...

i don't think the problem is the disc....:3d_frown:

[mk3ukr]

DrJones, very much possible, I don't want to blame HPF or demand refund.
I put back my old RPS 6-puck disc, now my flywheel and pressure plate are in far worse condition, had to remove clutch disc material with scraper and rough sandpaper. Want to run in clutch disc for 500 miles and try it on the strip. If it holds - HPF disc not so suitable for drag racing.
Will report it in this thread

[MRSUPRA]

I'm running the HPF bronse clutch. My last time out at the track, the disc welded its self to the aluminuym flywheel during a burnout. The flywheel friction area was very scored and I had HPF redo the disc for $125. I am now using the stock flywheel with the same clutch so hopefully that doesn't happen again. Other than the welding problem, I do like the HPF clutch and its never slipped once running mostly 1.8 60fts with DR's.

[upgradedsupra]

DrJones, very much possible, I don't want to blame HPF or demand refund.
I put back my old RPS 6-puck disc, now my flywheel and pressure plate are in far worse condition, had to remove clutch disc material with scraper and rough sandpaper. Want to run in clutch disc for 500 miles and try it on the strip. If it holds - HPF disc not so suitable for drag racing.
Will report it in this thread

I again have been running the HPF 6 pucks disk. 1.5-1.6 60's on it with slicks and holds fine for me. ??

Duane

[suprahero]

Dang Duane, now I really feel bad about my 2.2 60' times. I think my best is 2.0something. I can't find it. I've got like thirty slips and can't find my fastest time. I'm just now getting used to my drag radials though. My other runs were on street tires...............lol

[upgradedsupra]

Dang Duane, now I really feel bad about my 2.2 60' times. I think my best is 2.0something. I can't find it. I've got like thirty slips and can't find my fastest time. I'm just now getting used to my drag radials though. My other runs were on street tires...............lol

Drag radials give wheel hop.Not all the time but they do. I have run ET Streets for a year now and have not any troubles. Sometimes I rush and get crappy 60's like 1.68-1.70's but when I take my time as you can see in some vids..(don't care for reaction time LOL) I do great 60's! I just hope with my new set-up that my car will launch similar to the last set-up I just took off. Bigger turbo and more power might make it difficult. Well, if the torque is the same or close to it, it should be no problem.

Duane

[89supturbo]

i'm very interested in how the HPF bronze clutch will hold and wether or not it will weld to a stock flywheel b/c i've been hearing alot of bad things about the hpf clutches but a clutch that holds 600hp and is rebuildable for 125 is almost irresistable

[upgradedsupra]

i'm very interested in how the HPF bronze clutch will hold and wether or not it will weld to a stock flywheel b/c i've been hearing alot of bad things about the hpf clutches but a clutch that holds 600hp and is rebuildable for 125 is almost irresistable

I keep saying this..mine has been fine..*this is a recording (insert area code here)*

Duane

[drjonez]

I keep saying this..mine has been fine..*this is a recording (insert area code here)*

Duane

w/a stock FW.....

[upgradedsupra]

w/a stock FW.....

Yes with OEM flywheel. I actually JUST got a another new OEM flywheel from Toyota :)

Duane

[mk3ukr]

I again have been running the HPF 6 pucks disk. 1.5-1.6 60's on it with slicks and holds fine for me. ??

Duane

Duane, incredible 60' time. Do you drop clutch or slip it through the 1st gear?

[upgradedsupra]

Duane, incredible 60' time. Do you drop clutch or slip it through the 1st gear?

A secret ;) I have a few things that I do. :)

Duane

[kwnate]

You mean the secret auto tranny with the 5pd shift knob on it?

[mk3ukr]

DrJones, very much possible, I don't want to blame HPF or demand refund.
I put back my old RPS 6-puck disc, now my flywheel and pressure plate are in far worse condition, had to remove clutch disc material with scraper and rough sandpaper. Want to run in clutch disc for 500 miles and try it on the strip. If it holds - HPF disc not so suitable for drag racing.
Will report it in this thread

OK, RPS 6-puck slips like crazy even on 5th gear when step on gas from 3500rpm. All this f#ck up with HPF disc was my fault of course. Time to buy new HPF 6-puck clutch and OEM flywheel.
Any body care to explain why OEM FW works better with ferramic clutches. Aluminium FW inserts compatible with most ceramic clutches AFAIK and I would love to keep my lightweight FW and change insert only.
Is it because lightweight FW accelerate at much higher rate then heavy OEM ? :icon_conf
Thanks

[drjonez]

about the only thing i can come up with is higher heat capacity....

[IJ.]

My "guess" would be as I stated earlier that the Friction material on the Aluminium Flywheel is a close match to the material in the Disc that coupled with the fact that there may not be very good heat transfer between the Friction surface and the aluminium would cause hot spots that are close to the melting point.

If there was thermal paste between to 2 flywheel materials it "shouldn't" happen but I can't think of a way to keep it in there!

[upgradedsupra]

My "guess" would be as I stated earlier that the Friction material on the Aluminium Flywheel is a close match to the material in the Disc that coupled with the fact that there may not be very good heat transfer between the Friction surface and the aluminium would cause hot spots that are close to the melting point.

If there was thermal paste between to 2 flywheel materials it "shouldn't" happen but I can't think of a way to keep it in there!

Easy fix = get an OEM flywheel :)

Duane

[mk3ukr]

My "guess" would be as I stated earlier that the Friction material on the Aluminium Flywheel is a close match to the material in the Disc that coupled with the fact that there may not be very good heat transfer between the Friction surface and the aluminium would cause hot spots that are close to the melting point.

If there was thermal paste between to 2 flywheel materials it "shouldn't" happen but I can't think of a way to keep it in there!

Ian, you know everything :icon_bigg
It's easier to take decisiion when I know the reason behind it. It is very clear from pictures that FW was overheated more then pressure plate

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6269/hpfclutch03qs8.th.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hpfclutch03qs8.jpg)

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/524/hpfclutch02tf7.th.jpg (http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hpfclutch02tf7.jpg)

[IJ.]

Ian, you know everything :icon_bigg
It's easier to take decisiion when I know the reason behind it. It is very clear from pictures that FW was overheated more then pressure plate


Well not really but I worked for a few years in the industry as a kid so picked up a few things! ;)

[flubyux2]

well, its quite possible that since both the PP and the flywheel are USED... that the step is COMPLETELY wrong now. the clutch system is designed to work within a small range of thickness between the flywheel and pp. on a fresh PP and flywheel w/ a proper step, the clutch will loose its clamping force as the material expends. the PP can only compress so far, once you lose the disc thickness, you lose that clamping force and thats why your clutch ultimately slips when its "worn out". alot of the time, the diaphragm and clamping force is virtually unchanged.

plus, hand-sanding the PP and flywheel isnt always a good solutoin. i mean, its hard to remove even a few thousandths of material from JUST sanding/honing/polishing by hand. but, the runout or thickness variation that results from anything but a Blanchard-ground surface can cause bad chatter and uneven clamping force due to lack of contact patch.

i would recommend getting a new friction plate for the flywheel and a new clutch. that would most likely solve all your problems since it sounds like it all stems from reusing old parts.

Btw, Duane... does your launching technique resemble an AWD launch technique? i really had to change my style when trying to launch my old AWD DSM. no clutch dumping or any of those shenanigans.