audio experts: help me!

[canadian]

I am looking to start building an audio system for my supra. I have my eyes on two 12" subs from Audiobahn rated at 800W RMS and 1600W Peak. To go along with those I also found a 10" from audiobahn rated for simular RMS and peak numbers. This is probably a bit overkill?

What I am wondering is what kind of an amp. do I need to power these 2 subwoofers? Their are mono channel, 2-channel, and multi channel amps ranging from low to high wattage...

Is it possible to use one mono channel amp to power the three subwoofers on one channel or is it not possible? What do I need to run to beable to use these 3 subwoofers to their full potential. What is the RMS wattage I need for the amp(s) to power the subwoofers?

I will be using a seperate amp. for the other speakers for the front and behind the seat.

Thanks

[canadian]

Anyone?
No rush, just would like to start searching before it's too late.
Thanks

[canadian]

Anyone??? If I have three subwoofers, do I need 3 mono channel amps to have the best power output?

[figgie]

ok first off

what is the goal of this setup?

to make loud booms???

the trick is to know what you want. Because three speakers driven from one amp will change the amp recommendation than if you were just pushing two.

RWMS is about pointless as most everyone except the very deaf won't ever pass 100 watts rms during normal listeing.

best power output.. no such thing. Again. If you want to just goo "booooooOOOm" you will need an amp that has a very high RMS rating NOT peak/max!!!

You could do THREE amps in a bridged setup or one amp pushing all three in a parallel/serial configuration. Lots of power does not destroy speaker. Shit unclean power does.

[lil_dcb7]

you wont need a whole lot if you want something that sounds nice and clear. as the supra is a hatch back, the sound will be more centered and symphonic compared to a regular passanger car. Hell, a basic set up will do you just fine.

[canadian]

ok first off

what is the goal of this setup?

to make loud booms???

the trick is to know what you want. Because three speakers driven from one amp will change the amp recommendation than if you were just pushing two.

RWMS is about pointless as most everyone except the very deaf won't ever pass 100 watts rms during normal listeing.

best power output.. no such thing. Again. If you want to just goo "booooooOOOm" you will need an amp that has a very high RMS rating NOT peak/max!!!

You could do THREE amps in a bridged setup or one amp pushing all three in a parallel/serial configuration. Lots of power does not destroy speaker. Shit unclean power does.


What would be the cleanest sounding set up? I listen to a lot of rap/hip hop/techno so loud and "booooooom" as you described it lol is ideal. But I also want it crisp and clear for metal and rock too.
Would 3 amps bridged be cleaner than 1 in parralell/series?

[Cup_of_suprA]

First of all the car is not that big, so you really don't need a lot of power to sound clean. I have heard cars with one good quality sub kit harder and sound cleaner then with people trying too hard and putting too many subs and too many amps. spend your money on some nice high quality mids with an amp to match. more boom for your buck...

[born2drv]

I wouldn't mix subwoofers of different sizes or brands unless you have very good crossovers/equalization to seperate their frequencies. Reason being that they will produce different frequeny outputs at different timing phases, and you could get some cancellation or muddy sounding negating any real gains of running the multiple subs.

Again if you seperate them all out properly then there won't be any problems but you'll need some very good crossovers and eqs, and 2 or 3 channels of amplification (3ch amp, 1ch+2ch amps, 1ch+1chmonoblock, etc)

[CF_Sapper]

if yah want my honst opinon 3 subs is way to many for the size of the supra
go with the 2 12's ans spend the extra money and do it right in a fiberglass incloser or hell do what im doing and replace the back seats with the subs and fiberglass it

just my 2 cents

[canadian]

I figured 2 12's and a 10" may be too much, so I'm glad I asked.

I will just stick with two 12 inch subs like I started with in the beginning.
Back to the question, if they are 800W RMS each, what amp should I use? Should I use 2 or just one amp? I don't know a lot about this stuff, so any help is appreciated.
Fiberglass boxes were on the list.

[born2drv]

unless you want to run stereo bass, 1 channel is sufficient (1-channel monoblock that you would bridge both subs too)... or you could get a 2-channel amp and again bridge them together. This will depend on the resistance (ohms) of your subwoofers and the load the amplifier is capable of holding. There is no need for 2 amps. One amp either monoblock or 2-channel bridged is best.

[bigaaron]

One good quality 12" sub and power amp can make plenty of bass in a Supra!

[canadian]

unless you want to run stereo bass, 1 channel is sufficient (1-channel monoblock that you would bridge both subs too)... or you could get a 2-channel amp and again bridge them together. This will depend on the resistance (ohms) of your subwoofers and the load the amplifier is capable of holding. There is no need for 2 amps. One amp either monoblock or 2-channel bridged is best.

Okay I will stick with 1 channel monoblock amp so I can bridge the 2 together.
What kind of output from an amp should I look for then? Do I want to run the subs at 4 or 2 Ohms?

Thanks

[bigaaron]

More amplifier power at higher impedance FTW!

Get an amplifier with enough output that you don't have to run it at 2 ohms in mono. Most amplifiers will run very hot or be damaged by a 2ohm load in mono. Plus there is added distortion.

[canadian]

Thanks, I will start looking.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Actually Aaron, you've got it backwards. Less resistance is always better, and creates less heat. If you don't believe me, look at any amplifier ratings--the 2ohm load will nearly always produce higher power than the 4ohm load.

Honestly, if you're looking for super boomy bass, spend about 2 grand on a JL 13w7 and a 1000/1 amp to match it. Then put it in a 4 cubic foot tuned slot ported box at about 28hz...maybe even lower than that. You'll most likely need a bigger alternator and possibly a deep cycle (optima) battery though.

[bigaaron]

Actually Aaron, you've got it backwards. Less resistance is always better, and creates less heat. If you don't believe me, look at any amplifier ratings--the 2ohm load will nearly always produce higher power than the 4ohm load.


I see where someone might think that, but that is not the case here at all. The reason the amplifier will make more power at a lower impedance is simple ohms law stuff. That extra power does come with higher distortion and more heat. Of that I am sure. Low impedance loads draw more amperage, and more amperage means more stress on the power supply and output transistors (or mosfets)
I didn't mean that higher impedance will make more power, I meant buy a higher power amplifier and run it into a higher impedance load, rather then get a underpowered amplifier and try to drive it into 2 ohms to get the power you want. Higher power amplifiers will have higher output voltage, which will also increase the current, but with more damping. That will give you a much more accurate sounding sub with less distortion.

[canadian]

Actually Aaron, you've got it backwards. Less resistance is always better, and creates less heat. If you don't believe me, look at any amplifier ratings--the 2ohm load will nearly always produce higher power than the 4ohm load.

Honestly, if you're looking for super boomy bass, spend about 2 grand on a JL 13w7 and a 1000/1 amp to match it. Then put it in a 4 cubic foot tuned slot ported box at about 28hz...maybe even lower than that. You'll most likely need a bigger alternator and possibly a deep cycle (optima) battery though.


How do I tune the box to 28hz? What if I want it higher for the CR factor:naughty:
Kidding. But on a serious note, how do I tune the box when I build it?

Thanks

[canadian]

What about this?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/BRAND-NEW-Audiobahn-DUB1800D-1800-watt-Mono-Amp-NR_W0QQitemZ180011995598QQihZ008QQcategoryZ64571QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It's the DUB1800D:
http://i18.ebayimg.com/03/i/07/3b/0d/e4_1.JPG

[figgie]

Actually Aaron, you've got it backwards. Less resistance is always better, and creates less heat. If you don't believe me, look at any amplifier ratings--the 2ohm load will nearly always produce higher power than the 4ohm load.

Honestly, if you're looking for super boomy bass, spend about 2 grand on a JL 13w7 and a 1000/1 amp to match it. Then put it in a 4 cubic foot tuned slot ported box at about 28hz...maybe even lower than that. You'll most likely need a bigger alternator and possibly a deep cycle (optima) battery though.

actually no

bigaaron is right

higher power into lower impendance decreases the control (dampening, thereby inversly increasing distrotion) of the load. The "cheater" amps did this and they always sounded worse than the same power into higher resistance amps.

In other words an Orion HCCA 225 (25 watts in 4 ohms) could be pushed to 200 watts (stable to .5 ohms) but believe me it sound like ass compared to an amp that could push the 200 watts into 8 ohms.

yes I was competing in this stuff that long ago that I still remember the RED orion HCCA line which thankfully Orion/DEIkilled off :)

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

hmmp...interesting. Learn something new every day :)

I'm big into car audio stuff, I'm actually going in february 07 to get MECP certified! :D

[bigaaron]

Cool deal!

I was MECP certified for Good Guys about 8 years ago.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Sweet--where'd you go to get certified

[canadian]

Can anyone suggest an amp that will suit my needs?

[bigaaron]

Sweet--where'd you go to get certified

They had a few special invite-only training and testing groups for the top GG installers back then, and I got the highest score in the company. :icon_bigg

I'm only half as dumb as I look :icon_wink

[bwest]

I'll make the suggestions simple:

1. Don't pick an amp until you have a sub
2. don't pick a sub until you know where you plan on mounting it

A small cabin (our cars) coupled with large reflective surfaces (read rear hatch) do not take much speaker to fill the air. Say you have your sub mounted in the trunk facing up. the air will reflect off the rear window forward, almost acting as another form of amplification. a real world example would be to stand to the side of a fan and use a piece of cardboard to reflect air from the fan towards you. similar enough concept.

what kind of music do you want? I built a 2x 10" JLw0 system for a mustang (custom ported box @ 30hz) w/ 55m wts behind it (RF Power) and a 5 1/4 focal sys up front. I could hear the car coming a 1/2 mi away (measured it) with plenty of volume left, but so what? The bass was way overpowering, even at a low level (its what my brother wanted, for people to hear him coming).

figure out what kind of music you want first.
second, to echo figgie, cleanliness is very important in car audio. get a good HU w/ 4v outputs. If you are serious, get a dead head (one w/ no internal amp) Eclipse might still make one, Alpine did a few years ago, Clarion hasn't since 2001 (i have the last model). No internal amp, no heat, cleaner signal.

3. listen. go test out subs. do you want a kevlar cone, wood pulp, alum or poly? they all sound different, what fits your taste? How much space are you willing to give? a quality single 10 in a properly built ported box sounds better than an equivelent (or step up) 12 in a small sealed box IMO. YMMV

4. what is your front stage? $45 2 way kenwoods are not the answer. I say spend the cash for a decent comp set-up with silk tweeters. others may like alum or titianium. what ever fits your taste.

5. now you can figure out an amp. you will know exactly what you need for power at this point. there is no reason to buy an 800w mono class D amp when your entire system only requires 450w to sound balanced. the money you spent on the extra 350w is nothing more than a waste.

just a thought...HTH

[canadian]

Quick question again...
How do I tune a box to a certain Hz when I make it?


The headunit I have is a JVC AR3000...is this good enough? I paid ennough for it so I hope so.
Thanks

[bigaaron]

I'll make the suggestions simple:

1. Don't pick an amp until you have a sub
2. don't pick a sub until you know where you plan on mounting it

A small cabin (our cars) coupled with large reflective surfaces (read rear hatch) do not take much speaker to fill the air. Say you have your sub mounted in the trunk facing up. the air will reflect off the rear window forward, almost acting as another form of amplification. a real world example would be to stand to the side of a fan and use a piece of cardboard to reflect air from the fan towards you. similar enough concept.

what kind of music do you want? I built a 2x 10" JLw0 system for a mustang (custom ported box @ 30hz) w/ 55m wts behind it (RF Power) and a 5 1/4 focal sys up front. I could hear the car coming a 1/2 mi away (measured it) with plenty of volume left, but so what? The bass was way overpowering, even at a low level (its what my brother wanted, for people to hear him coming).

figure out what kind of music you want first.
second, to echo figgie, cleanliness is very important in car audio. get a good HU w/ 4v outputs. If you are serious, get a dead head (one w/ no internal amp) Eclipse might still make one, Alpine did a few years ago, Clarion hasn't since 2001 (i have the last model). No internal amp, no heat, cleaner signal.

3. listen. go test out subs. do you want a kevlar cone, wood pulp, alum or poly? they all sound different, what fits your taste? How much space are you willing to give? a quality single 10 in a properly built ported box sounds better than an equivelent (or step up) 12 in a small sealed box IMO. YMMV

4. what is your front stage? $45 2 way kenwoods are not the answer. I say spend the cash for a decent comp set-up with silk tweeters. others may like alum or titianium. what ever fits your taste.

5. now you can figure out an amp. you will know exactly what you need for power at this point. there is no reason to buy an 800w mono class D amp when your entire system only requires 450w to sound balanced. the money you spent on the extra 350w is nothing more than a waste.

just a thought...HTH

:withstupi

Well said!

[bwest]

using those most famous words: Search

Not here, but google and the web are a good start (/sarcasm)

here is a place to begin (http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/dilemma.htm) (courtesy of google) while it won't answer your questions directly, it will explain a lot of the WHY.

At one time, JL had a good amount of tech stuff on their site, but i haven't been there in a long while. What you will find is there is a lot more to building a box than port length and diam when it comes to tuning freq.

Good luck and start reading.

[bwest]

Thanks Big A!

[canadian]

Sorry Bwest...soon after I asked that the second time I thought to myself..."maybe I shouldn't be so lazy and start googling it" so I started searching and I'm learning a bit. There is a lot of BS to sort through on the web though:aigo:

Thanks...I will come back with some more questions once I am understanding this stuff.

[bwest]

No worries. It is not as easy people think it is, yet its not so difficult that the majority of people can't get it. In the end, some good info can save you a lot of money, time and give you a great sounding system that fits your needs.

And at the end of the day, that is all that matters. :icon_bigg

[figgie]

lots of BS indeed

but you want cold hard facts from guys that were winning trophies in the earliy 90's to the early 2000's and still participate

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/

Richard Clark (http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/forumdisplay.php?f=16) (owner of the 87 Buick Grand National that won 4 IASCA world championships when they were the competition to be in.)
David Navone (http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/forumdisplay.php?f=17) (Genius installer and electronics wizard. This guy basically invented the mod to use pro-audio eq's and crossovers for car environment).
Matt Bogart (http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/forumdisplay.php?f=19) (if this guy can't create it no one can)

ask questions but be prepared for cold hard facts on car audio reality ;)

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Another great place to look for help:

http://www.caraudiocentral.net/
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/4/4.html

Look for Glasswolf and KikiTheCat (they're the same person on those 2 forums) as he is an absolute genius. He's been a master installer for something like 30 years. Also, william from NOLA, and Ryan from Ohio are great.

[canadian]

Thanks for those links guys, I will check them out soon.
SM rocks!