Cold start tapping/knocking...uh oh....

[Figit090]

Every other time I start my supra I notice a knocking sound coming from something in the engine bay...probably the engine... but it's getting me worried...

This only happens sometimes... and after about 3 seconds it'd gone, but sometimes it hits hard enough to feel and i just dont like it at all....

I have noticed the noises when the startup idle does NOT go to 1k+ rpm but immediatly sits around 500, usually after i go shopping and my engine for one reason or another doesn't need to rev up...

...on cold days or when it hasn't been started for a night it will rev up to around one grand like normal and i dont notice any knock...i tried to slow the revs by letting the clutch slip a bit to see if i could hear it but i didn't notice anything (bad idea probably...but i really wanted to know if it always did it)

i hope this isn't an expensive problem... i've searched and came up with little on what this could be...rod knock? i've owned it maybe 2 months now and it didn't do this before.... and i have MORE than enough oil..it's above the full mark.

[Figit090]

nobody?

[IJ.]

Might be a bit tired and loose so the pump can't get enough suction/provide enough pressure when it starts at 500 rpm the clatter you're hearing is the rod bearings slowly destroying themselves. :(

Bit of a problem here do you hold a little throttle so it doesn't idle slow putting some extra load on it and maybe doing additional damage or do you let it idle slow clacking with minimal load.......

[Figit090]

well when it it's started and doesn't rev up past 600 or so you can hear the knocking, and it soon goes away.......

i'll go start it and see what i hear...

[Figit090]

nothing... i didn't notice the knock like it did for a few days... i'm hoping its not a bearing... on the first few starts it held an idle at around 1300 rpm. I let the clutch out to slow the rpm but i didn't hear anything wrong...i guess that's bad...i dont know.

I've heard the knocking sound when it starts up and doesn't idle fast, either from heat soak or because it's still warm from the last time i drove it (usually after shopping) it's only done it about 5 times that i remember... I'll start it and it will run at or a bit below the normal warm idle speed and it knocks (less than 10 times) and then sounds fine...

i was thinking (or hoping rather) that it was just a pump that needs more RPM's to run smooth and that was just making the noise... because wouldn't the noise be apparant all the time if it were a bearing?

I let it warm up a bit and probably started it 15 times to see if i could hear it...but nothing. If i'm going to hear it, it probably won't happen unless i run it for a while, shut it off, let it settle for a while, and then start it again.

what does a knock sensor do? does it sence bad timing?

[s383mmber1]

knock sensors will retard the timing accordingly.

Maybe your lifter need to be adjusted---but i didn't really read

[Figit090]

knock sensors will retard the timing accordingly.

Maybe your lifter need to be adjusted---but i didn't really read

yeah...um....thanks.

I guess if you didn't read then there is still no telling what could be wrong but i guess i'll take that into consideration...

for all i know it could be a cylinder not firing. :icon_conf

[jtamulis]

after youstart your car up, see what the oil pressure is at idle. if its really
low, change your oil to 20w50. Then see if it keep doing it. email me directly
with results. (and post here)

Jeff

[johnathan1]

i have heard of this, it has to do with the cams, and the tiny oil passage in a cam lobe being clogged or something, I remember reading this somewhere, and I have also heard the sound you described in person while I was shopping for supras... I am willing to bet SERIOUS money that this is the problem.... I will try to do some additional research...

[ddmcse]

i'm assuming you are open to suggestions .
here is mine

loose main pulley bolt

before you start the engine put your hand on the alternator pulley and give it a twist to see if it moves to the left or the right . you should not be able to move it..

[Figit090]

i have heard of this, it has to do with the cams, and the tiny oil passage in a cam lobe being clogged or something, I remember reading this somewhere, and I have also heard the sound you described in person while I was shopping for supras... I am willing to bet SERIOUS money that this is the problem.... I will try to do some additional research...

thanks! scared the crap out of me when you put "SERIOUS" and "money" in the same sentence but after re-reading it doesn't sound so bad.... thanks very much, i look forward to seeing what you come up with...i'd search a bit right now but i have schoolwork keeping be too busy...:icon_evil

i'm assuming you are open to suggestions .
here is mine

loose main pulley bolt

before you start the engine put your hand on the alternator pulley and give it a twist to see if it moves to the left or the right . you should not be able to move it..

By left or right i assume you mean sliding up and down whatever shaft it's on... so i'll go wiggle it and all the other pulleys i can get to and see what i come up with, just incase. thanks. and i am open to suggestion, although johnathan seems to be pretty confident of his diagnosis...but i'm willing to try anything!
----------EDIT----------;
Thanks to you i discovered my carelessly left-off oil filler cap... before starting. i must have had it running with it off for a little bit but thankfully i didn't drive anywhere yesterday and put it back on before loosing it... sheesh.

I wiggled every pulley and the only one with noticable play that i could move was the pully to the left on the bottom with the holes in it, which i believe is the power steering pump... and the whole shaft seemed to move, not just the wheel, because the bolt looked pretty well attached to the pulley and i think it's just armature play...not much either. When you said alternator pully... which is that...the pully on the alternator or at the other end of the belt? the alternator seems fine. The only thing i notice that i think is a bit odd is the main pulley, with the multiple belt tracks, has a slight wobble, not much but it's not running true like the other pulleys. maybe it's the size...i'm not sure. if this is abnormal i'll see if it's loose with a wrench later... let me know.

after youstart your car up, see what the oil pressure is at idle. if its really
low, change your oil to 20w50. Then see if it keep doing it. email me directly
with results. (and post here)

Jeff

--------EDIT----------
I started it up and it took about 5 seconds to get up to 40, and on my gauge that's the high point for idle, and midway in normal driving... when i had my head under the hood i gave it some gas to listen to the engine and that was enough to push up the pressure more so i think it's good. I drove it around my yard a bit and it never went higher than the next marker before the 80 mark... so i think oil pressure is fine.

[ddmcse]

inside that main pulley there is a bolt.
you can stick your fingers in there and see if you feel it and you can tell if it's loose. that main pulley should not be wobbling . if it's wobbling it would suggest it's loose , not good and that will make an engine knock sound when you go to start it when cold and it needs more than one crank to start .
if that bolt is loose you may have damage to the crank shaft.
i saw a post one here a few days ago about this issue
do not stick your fingers in there while the engine is running
grab that main pulley and turn it clockwise and/or counter clockwise instead of the fingers into the pulley if you would rather .
it should not move not even a pinch

[Figit090]

suck my fingers in, no looseness
tried to wiggle and turn the main pulley....no movement...period.

i think that it may just be made a bit...off and isn't as perfectly round as the other pulleys.

[supramacist]

What year model of car is this?

[Figit090]

1986.5..... mkIII..... 7mge

[NDBoost]

that would be cool if my car has this same problem. What about what someoen else suggested, not enough oil flow so you get a bit of knock until it starts flowing oil? Bump im curious..

[Figit090]

what would actually be making the knocking sound? the oil pump turning over? (i don't know how they work)

it hasn't been as prominant as it was for a few days but i still hear a faint knocking that goes with the engine rpm...it's just that my car usually revs up when it starts... so the lower idle knocking hasnt had much of a chance to happen..

but right now my oil pressure seemed a bit lower than usual, but i just now started looking at it so maybe it's been that way all the time...it's just that i drove it a bit harder than normal and the oil pressure didn't go up like i would think....maybe it was because it's warm and flowing better than when i cold start it.... that's probably it.

today my battery cable (which was poorly attached) came off after refuling and i got a nasty scare when i turned the key and absolutely NOTHING happened.... but i fexed it, drove it home and then made a permenant fix...now it's running a bit better and the ECU seems to have reset because it ran like it was really rich for a while.... gettin' better though... :biglaugh:

[IJ.]

Low to no oil pressure at start up lets the Rod bearings contact the crank and you get noise.
(see my first post in this thread)

[Figit090]

is that really bad?

[IJ.]

Can be if that's what it is!

Try the 20w/50 thing Jeff suggested if it stops making the noise on cold starts it's a good chance that Rod Knock isn't far off.

[Figit090]

ok... damn. lol. hopefully its not but it's a first car and i got a good deal...so i'm not to upset.

[IJ.]

For the future think worst case scenario and then be happy if it turns out not to be so bad ;)!

[Figit090]

what is the worst case scenario......lol....cost...difficulty? i dont have a lot of knowledge about how much things cost or what it will take...

uurgh...my own avitar is making me sick i need to make it smaller.

[IJ.]

LOL Worst case is it needs a rebuild!

Well actually worst case would be it develops full blown RK kicks a rod out through the side of the block causing an oil fire and burns to the ground.....

[Figit090]

OH SHIZ!!! lol....

how much does it cost for the full rebuild one? can i do it myself?

[supramacist]

You should be able to. I mean, you seem to know your way around your car. I'm not a mechanic and after lurking around the underbelly for a few day's. I think I can do it. Take lots of digital pics and keep them in order. You should get a tsrm and or a chilton. I know I am going to have to rebuild......, It's all just a matter of when. And it is a hell of a lot easier putting exactlly the same thing in. But if you gut it. Build the way you want it so you won't have to fool with it again.

[Figit090]

yeah a tsrm is on my t-do list. thank the lord that they are online and this forum exists...i've recieved a lot of help. hopefully it doesn't cost much or i'll be ditching the mge for a turbo.

I have a feeling it's not a rod...i heard the noise a few times much louder than others and i haven't really changed anything...and i would think a mechanical problem such as that would be more consistant and show more problems under a load....but i dunno.

I'm waiting to see if Johnathan has found any info....

[supramacist]

it won't. it's just like you are saying your'e doing. There's usually start up knock. But when you have the knock in 3rd @ 3k rpm's. You notice it eases up @ 2.5 and when you get close to 3.5 it's gone. It's just going to get worse the longer you drive it. Point Blank.

[supramacist]

I may be wrong dude, but I have had exactlly what you are saying happen to me. and it kills you inside because you know this is a good ride, and you are either going to do 1 of 2 things about it. 1. your'e gonna pay out the asscot to get it fixed. 2. Or your'e still gonna spend some money and your'e going to get dirty. I'd go out and buy a few new tools. No better way to motivate for this gig. IMO. It'll drive for a while. while meaning a few oil changes down the road the way it is.
Slopiness breeds inefficiency

[johnathan1]

ugh, I have searched AND searched, and I can't seem to retrieve that page...I read it sooo long ago (almost two years ago)It basically explained the problem you're having, and IIRC, It was due to oil not reaching one of the cam lobes right away (like on startup), due to excessive wear on the lobe, and/or clogged oil passages (they are tiny) at the back end of the camshaft can't remember if it was cyl #5 or 6......It basically stated that it doesn't pose a threat to your engine, it is just a little annoying, sorry I can't be of more help. hopefully someone will chime in that knows, or has read the same page...

In the meantime, have someone start it up, and you put your ear at the rear of the motor, and try and determine if it is coming from under the valve cover (camshaft)

[supramacist]

Your'e right John. It may never get any worse than it is right now.

[Figit090]

alright...thanks guys.... i'll try and catch the sound on a start where it's really prominant.... hopefully i'll get lucky....one day it got pretty loud but hasnt since...i dunno.

i'm just going to work on a tune up and get everything that is servicable serviced and go from there. right now she pulls and engine brakes a bit jerky...almost like a piston doesnt want to give much power so i'm hoping new plugs will help... the distributor contacts were corroded to crap so my guess is the plug under the EFI wont be very good either...hopefully thats my jerkyness... a cylinder that isnt burning all the fuel... we'll see this weekend.

[supramacist]

Maybe you just need to turn your rotors. A full fledged tune up will make a huge difference. cap, rotor, wires and plugs. I'm just working on mine and doing what I can. After I have tried and I know I don't have enough in my pocket to knock it, Mechanic.

[suprra_girl]

the post about the cam journals and the material & the wear i saw on the supras.com mailing list

i believe we also have that problem with my mums gte
start it cold, top end... tap tap tap gone! and it's not every day, just sometimes

when it breaks i'll fix it ;)

[supramacist]

:bsflag: :icon_mull Yes..., just turn the radio up and ignore the knock of your engine calling out for help now.

[suprra_girl]

i hope that wasn't in response to my post :nono:

[Figit090]

well i dont feel like shelling big bucks to fix my engine...but i would LOVE to know whats wrong so i can plan for my future transportation...weather that be a new car/truck, a new supra TURBO, a new turbo engine, fix what i have, or go NA>T if that somehow magically becomes practical and my engine wont blow up.

does that fact that my car only has 108,000 miles on it change anyone's opinions?? seems a bit early for something to go badly wrong except the head gasket...which was just a stupid mistake on toyota's part....

you always hear toyotas as being reliable... does that not quite apply to the MGE engines? I know that running conditions play a part...but my car isn't thrashed by any means.

I did the cap and rotor on the distributor, and i'm going to get plugs this weekend...then wires probably.

[supramacist]

There has been a huge dispute from supra owners to toyota. To recall these cars because of the head gasket issues. This is my first toyota. I am impressed and then I am pissed and then I'm impressed again. Get used to it, or get a 4 sale sign.

[johnathan1]

well said ^^

Figit: If you don't plan on staying with the Supra long term, then don't waste our time, and I'm trying hard not to be a jerk ;). If you want to stay with the Supra, you have to recognise that it is quite old, and as any other car would be, is prone to age-related issues...oh, and the Head gasket....

[supramacist]

I told someone yesterday. Dude, go out and buy some new tools. There is no better way, IMO, to get ready for this gig.

[davidtt87]

do not switch the oil, it will only make the oil move slower and get to the bearings slower on cold starts. to see if it is rod knock the only way is to slowly hold revs until you hear knocking and unplug spark plusg one by one until the sound goes away. this is easiest way for me to tell without a scope.

[Figit090]

well said ^^

Figit: If you don't plan on staying with the Supra long term, then don't waste our time, and I'm trying hard not to be a jerk ;). If you want to stay with the Supra, you have to recognise that it is quite old, and as any other car would be, is prone to age-related issues...oh, and the Head gasket....

I apologise if anyone felt i was waisting their time...i tend to get a bit ahead of myself sometimes. I have no intention of getting rid of my supra for a long time, the engine would be more likely to change but i just see all the swaps happening and get anxious, along with the tapping and thought of a rod knock...then i think of just saving money for a new engine, but then that makes me think of just saving a bit more for a whole new car WITH the engine already in. But i have a perfectly good car right now and thats kinda silly.

Supramacist: yeah, i have most tools needed but precision engine tools i dont have. I have PLEANTY of the tools needed to take apart and put my car together, i just dont have some of the reccomended calibration tools that mechanics have. I will buy those as needed. Good heads up though..and thanks. I keep a full tool set in my car.

I know my car is old, and as such more matenince is a given and i knew that when I picked her up.... its just the rod knock... I'll admit right now I dont know a TON about the tolerances of vehicles as of yet, but i know how they work for the most part, you get the idea...

with that said, i was just thinking a rod knock would be a mileage related issue because the engine is a rather sealed environment and unless there is some synthetic in the works i wouldnt think that bad bearings would be a problem unless the car was abused. that could be the case though. I'll just take everybodys advice and hope for the best :) . I'm going to do more searches with the info i have now to find out more about the oil blockage when i get a chance...i'll try and post it if i get the info because it seems others have the issue. I heard it again a bit ago when i started it up, but not as violent as before.... we'll see what happens.



edit-----
do not switch the oil, it will only make the oil move slower and get to the bearings slower on cold starts. to see if it is rod knock the only way is to slowly hold revs until you hear knocking and unplug spark plusg one by one until the sound goes away. this is easiest way for me to tell without a scope.

thanks...i'll probably try that if i find a RPM that i can hear it.

[johnathan1]

i doubt that it's rodknock, if it were, wouldn't the noise be constant? I am guessing it's just a worn cam lobe (or bearing) around cyl 5 or 6, caused by a lack of oil and because of the extra clearance it will move slightly and tap either the shim, or more likely tapping the cam against a bearing when there is little or no oil present (i.e. cold starts), then goes away once oil is present (a few secs after initial cold start) If it were ME, I wouldn't get all freaked out and panicky about it...It's not worth your sanity ;) Maybe try checking your cam bearing clearances...but before that, do the old "unplug the injector connectors one at a time" and if you hear the sound go away, then it's rodknock.

Also, I'm sorry if I was a dick, I just get all bent out of shape when people talk about abandoning a Supra, I guess I missunderstood what you said.

[Figit090]

.....well i said it in such a way that even i would have figured that probably if i had been the reader...and i can understand. thanks. I'm actually hoping I can keep it in good enough condition to keep it with no intention of selling...it's already older than me so why not keep it until it's a collectable car? I dont know how practical that is but whatever...i like it... I dont know if there is anything unique about it or special compared to other supras, or if the fact that it's the first edition makes any difference... but it looks nice :)

[supramacist]

So you're what 19? 20? I think what you need is another one. That way when one breaks down you can drive the supra you just finished working on for a couple of weeks till the other one you just finished working on has to be used because the one you just finished working on is broken down again.

[Figit090]

haha...good idea but no...i'd have to keep switching insurance. I canNOT afford both. but i AM looking for another, but i would not drive both regulerly... and i would only buy an mgte in good condition...i want to find one with a great body, or at least one without rust or dents or broken parts... my trim is a little odd becuase she used to be grey i think and it's been repainted. not to mention some dope bolted the fender on wrong and i have to fix that because the bottom trim doesn't fit right in front of my door....but yeah. i'm keeping an eye out but for now this one is serving me well. i'm going to flush the radiator today and get rid of airbubbles when i refill....hopefully all goes well.

17..18 soonish.

[supramacist]

buy the same make, model and year. Switch the plate. When was the last time you saw a pig get to where they searched out the vin #????

[supramacist]

I like your style there fig.

[Figit090]

I like your style there fig.

?????


in response to the previous minute's post, i can't do that because the turbo didn't exist yet....:3d_frown:


but yeah, the plate thing might work. if anything i can say i was working on my car and accidentally switched plates.... and then if the issue of why i only have insureance for one but drive both comes up i'll just say i love them so much i cant tell them apart....and got in the wrong one :P


oh and on a side note...how the heck to signatures decide when to show up and dissapear? sometimes only select posts of mine in a thread show my pic...and just now when i edited this a second ago there wasn't a signature...now it's there...what gives?

[supramacist]

I have also been known to paint different numbers on my plates to keep them in date. It's safe during the day. Not so safe at night.

[Figit090]

lol... are the stickers shiny or something?

[Fuzz420]

If u think its indeed rodknock and you still have to drive, run some of that lucas oil stuff.I ran my old motor into the ground and that the only thing i can think of that would made it run as long as it did. For reference i got rodknock 1 month after owning and then drove it 23k miles over the next 9 months before she went boom

[supramacist]

Lucas oil products are the shizzle.
ANd the stickers on your plates are usually reflective at night.

[Figit090]

yeah that's what i meant.

and thanks for the heads up on the lucas stuff, i'll check into it :)

[supramacist]

Lucas has been around for a long long time. I tried there injection(fuel) cleaner. it worked well. But as far as fuel inj. goes...., get a quart of transmission fluid and add to a very low tank of gas. you'll be surprised at the responce..., even with 87oct.

and yes..., I know it's off topic. But it's a good tip.

[davidtt87]

yeah the lucas stuff is good but not in cold climates the oil test in sf shows what some oil combined with lucas did, it like froze in the fridge lmao. but other than that its great stuff.

[supramacist]

ya....., if people where you live play hockey instead of baseball......., you might want to stay away from some of the product. But that's all I have ever herd that was bad about it. And to be honest I have herd more about Jimmy Page worshiping the devil than I have bad things about lucas.

[Figit090]

lol....

freezing in the fridge?? shoot... i keep my car in the garage but no oil that freezes is worth it's dry-start prevention capabilities. I live in Nor Cal and it gets pretty cold here, enough to frost the dew some nights. I could go for it in the summer but you never know. I keep my car in the garage though so maybe it'd be ok. I'd like to know exactly what temp it freezes...then i could decide.

[supramacist]

that's only the second time I had herd that ever. and if it was a test there is no telling how cold they had to get it to make it freeze. I have been up into tahoe and reno nevada. I used to live in so. cal.

[Figit090]

ok, i'll look more into it...i think i might get some...

does this stuff also help if you're burning oil? we have this lawn tractor that blows a horendous cloud of oil smoke out when you start it up or punch the throttle and if it could fix that and you've experianced it's effects on the smoling lemmie know! We need something that does great on smoking, this sucker puffs like a steam engine sometimes. :D

[supramacist]

the big name in oil right now, that i keep hearing over and over again is royal purple. toyota told me they'd do my head gasket and replace all of those seals for 600$ I really want to do it myself. BUt the more i study the bhg thing..., It makes me wonder if I truely have the mechanical ability. I feel confident I can but it's one of those things where I hate to royally f uck something up do to my own ignorance. I don't know about the smoke. I wouldn't be inclined to think that changing the oil will make it stop.

[Figit090]

well i just ran into another problem and I'm probably going to get info on BHG repairs soon...see my new thread. Is there any chance of getting discounts on the BHG job on our cars if we state that we know for a FACT that it was assembled wrong??

[Figit090]

the big name in oil right now, that i keep hearing over and over again is royal purple. toyota told me they'd do my head gasket and replace all of those seals for 600$ I really want to do it myself. BUt the more i study the bhg thing..., It makes me wonder if I truely have the mechanical ability. I feel confident I can but it's one of those things where I hate to royally f uck something up do to my own ignorance. I don't know about the smoke. I wouldn't be inclined to think that changing the oil will make it stop.


I'm probably going to do it and i've never EVER done major engine work...you learn as you go man. Tore apart a small engine once...

I dont think it is that hard...have you seen the pics of the process? you just dissasemble, resurface if it's needed, and then stick it back together with a new part....done.

[davidtt87]

not on a toyota u dont do that lmao, the supra is a picky bitch. the head has to have the right smoothness and same with the block. if you go with a mhg both will be required to have machining done.

[Figit090]

do people ever read full posts? I said "you just dissasemble, RESURFACE if it's needed...."

unless resurfacing doesn't mean making sure the parts are flat and smooth please tell me what it truly means. :)

[davidtt87]

it just looked like u thought u were gunna build the engine like u wud for a ford. sorry for the confusion this is one thing i hate about the internet.

[Figit090]

yeah same here, sorry if i sounded snotty. I hate online conversations, especially because i'm slightly touchy and jump to conclusions as i'm sure many people do... without the audible part of a conversation it really hurts some conversations. But i did make it sound simpler than i should have... i'm just getting to the sparkplugs and its pretty challenging compared to my dad's mitsu 4-cylinder...the plugs on his are right there....

[Figit090]

found some problems taking out the sparkplugs....the 5th cylinder was finger tight....

looks like i found a contributor to my jerky accel and decceleration... too bad i'm having other issues.....or i'd be happy.

[johnathan1]

...the supra is a picky bitch....

I couldn't agree more.

[supramacist]

FIGIT!!!! you are slaying me dude. I would resurface!!!!!! it's a f ucking must. IMO, I would resurface even if I went with a new oem hg. I'm going to do mine myself.... I'm going to get it all set up first so the car isn't out of comission for any longer than it has to be. I figure that if Toyota wants 6 benny's I can do it for under 3.5 . John may I ask why you named her Tiffany???? I think I have named mine.., Finessa.

[johnathan1]

Yes, re-surfacing the head is a MUST, w/out that, you are almost guaranteed to blow another one very shortly after replacement... these hg's are sooo sensitive.

supramacist: When I got my NA, I absolutely loved it at first sight, and it seemed like a girl car, and it was totally 80's, and I wanted it to have the most 80's girl's name I could think of, my NA was Kelli, and now the Turbo is Tiffany, a much more 80's name IMO. Haha, and I believe that there is a certain connotation with the name Tiffany that anyone with that name is like some high-maintenance, bitchy person, which describes the Supra almost exactly!

[supramacist]

Right on, I was just curious dude.

[Figit090]

lol.... yeah i'll get mine machined then. seems that somehow the price keeps going down every time i hear about doing the HG... I need to price an OEM gasket and some good bolts...i'm probably not going big HP on this one, since doing so is very expensive and i could just get a turbo motor for a fraction of the price.....

[supramacist]

I am always guestimating the price range dude...., i'll start giving you a top and bottom guestimate.

[Figit090]

lol...no need, just got the 6th plug out and i'm going to have to do some price checking anyway... there is no carbon on this plug and it's shiny clean...:cry: :icon_mad: :cry: :icon_conf

[Figit090]

hi everybody...reviving this old thread. i had this issue a few months ago before the BHG fix...now its still there and i'm still worried.

I have searched the site for rod knock and came up with some things but i'll describe what i'm feeling and hearing here...

SOMETIMES, not every time, i start the car, and it revs a bit past 1k RPM like i think it should, and as it drops back down to 700 RPM i hear this *knock,knock,knock...* for about 6 or so knocks. Then it stops and idles fine, no odd noises. I usually hear this when i've ran the engine at an earler time, shut it down, and then come back around 20 or so minutes later. (i.e. a trip to the store),so basically the oil and the engine are still warm from driving. i dont think i notice it much if even at all when its a COLD start...sometimes possibly a little noise, but i cant be sure if that isnt the regular starting vibrations messing with my worry-filled mind.

when i drive the car after it does NOT knock on startup...the revvs feel smoother with the clutch depressed, and when i slowly increase RPM from arounk 2k to 3k rpm i dont feel much or any of the knocking noise that I hear when it has been started WARM.

when i do the same thing on a knocking startup, push the clutch in and rev it, i hear this knocking sound which i can actually feel as well as hear. with my feet on the pedals (or on the footrest when in neutral instead of pushing the clutch), i can feel it with my feet as well as my hands on the wheel and through the shifter(5spd). I feel and hear the knocking when i slowly increase revs from around 2k to 3k rpm...and the rest of the range from about 700 to 4k (dont go higher) still feels a bit rougher then "normal".

first thing i thought on this was RK. fits descriptions i have heard, but i was hoping someone had a sound clip of a RK, or could give me ANY possiblities as to what else it could be. my dad and i both thought it was odd that it would only happen SOMETIMES. it seems like this problem should be consistant every time i drive it. i will know better tomorrow, but today, after it ran a bit rough yesterday...it felt fine. maybe the circumstances prevented me from noticing...i will listen carefully again tomorrow and try my best to "control" MY variables (throttle and clutch application)

what we thought it could possibly be...other than rod knock. (trying to hope for the best here...

fuel delivery problem?
throwout bearing?
bad plug wires? (mine are old)
oil delivery issue?
oil selection?
(i have some cheap phillips 5w-30 in there now... i was planning to use that for the flush and then the good valvoline 5w-30)

when my dad comes home i'll have him help me pull the plug wires one-by-one while i start/stop/rev the engine. then i'll listen for knocking with a tube, maybe a hose, and a stick...prodding the block as well as the oil pan. i would do it before posting this but i feel too upset and cant bring myself to go out there and do it yet. i need to be in a good mood incase i get bad news or i might freak out....i wasnt planning on a RK; and my engine doesnt have the mileage I'd EVER expect an engine to do this with...so after putting several hundred into BHG and then driving it again...hearing this just makes me sick. (i might also remove a belt or two and see if maybe its not the engine...if i dont have luck otherwise.)

so if you have any suggestions to what it could be...let me know. thanks a LOT in advance...even if you dont think i have a chance that its something else.

[johnathan1]

If I were you, I wouldn't worry about it so much, and just put Synthetic oil in the next oil change to clean the oil passages a bit (or a quart of ATF)...

Of course that is just my personal opinion though, my .02.

I am kinda the same way you are, and freak out about every little thing, and my world stops, but if i've learned anything, it's that this doesn't help at all, and there are tons of other things that need to be done, and the world doesn't revolve around my car. In fact, I was just outside dealing with a wiring issue with my CPS, you will be driving, and the car will just STOP, and you have to pull over, and wiggle the CPS wires, then it starts like magic...But you could imagine how frustrating that is when you desperately need a new wiring harness like i do, but the money just isn't there... I guess i'm trying to say that I know where you're coming from, because i've been there, and still am, really.

I hope that helped you, because it really helped me! :)

[Figit090]

i dont really have words to express how much better that makes me feel. i will still worry but i can eaisly read this post again. if it gets bad again i might even print it and tape it to my dashboard so i don't cry.

what u said is really true... and you are correct on everything u said about how you think we are... i felt...no...i FEEL so damn crappy every time it does this that i forget EVERYTHING else going on and focus myself on the knocking... then it makes me depressed until i can figure out a way to cheer myself up again.

i'm a natural at this worry-wort stuff. its more of a perfectionist worry but saying my "world stops" perfectly describes my feelings. thanks again!

will my oil tell me on there if it's synthetic? why would i want that by the way? i might even dump the oil tonight and go to the valvolene....the oil in there isnt getting dirty...either its is crap and doesnt do its job or my engine just wansnt that messy inside.

:D :D i feel mostly back to normal now...thanks.

[johnathan1]

Well, you're welcome!! :biglaugh: Us Supra people have it pretty bad...Supras are so old now, that almost all of the problems that we encounter are age related... When my car shut off when entering a driveway, then again while braking in the middle of a large four lane highway...i almost started crying, because I feel like i have put so damn mch into this car, and it still does this to me...you're NOT alone!

As for your problem (the car :biglaugh:) I would just do as IJ says and put a quart of ATF in with some more cheap philips, and save the valvoline for when you change your oil again in 2 weeks. How's that sound?

[Figit090]

well i still will have the knocking sound...the other oil might solve that...maybe

i also thought of a thicker oil...but if it was rod knock it might just hide it. i guess that would be GOOD though because it must mean it's wearing less or cushoning the impacts to some degree.

i have a Bosch oil filter on there now...and i have a WIX i can put on. it's my second filter since i did the BHG change...like....30 miles ago. lol. (and a good amount of stationary engine running. i noticed that the Wix has a spring in the oil passage (threaded part) so maybe its much better. it was a lot more $$ i can tel u that much. i have to find that filter-review site later

i have almost 6 quarts in there now and some people reccomend more...some people i've read have as much as 10!! how can that be? it sounds nuts but maybe it is a end-user-discovered thing to eliminate worries?

[supramacist]

try a lucas oil additive.

[Figit090]

i'm not exactly fond of additives. i have seen pictoral tests of these additives and it severely tampers with the anti-foaming ratio in the oil. once you add additive, the oil is "diluted" into a mix that containes an incorrect ratio of standard anti-foaming additives and it gets filled with air and wont cling like normal.

it may be a good concept, but oil companies spend lots of time and money researching what they produce, and "playing chemist" (as the article i am referring from states), is not a good thing to do unless you know really know what you're doing. i dont have the link on my right now. let me know if you'd like to see side-by-side visible oil tests showing the clinging and foaming properties before and after additives.

[supramacist]

i'd look at it. I haven't really ever heard a mechanic that said...., Don't use lucas. I am inclined to be a dick and say you must like the rod nock but you don't deserve that especially sinse you took the time to research it. I would add lucas and not look back. To each there own I guess. But for sure. I would check out that site.

[johnathan1]

Don't use Lucas, it may be okay in a V8 with a million miles on it, but in a turbo charged engine, the super thick Lucas does nothing but foam, and not lubricate.

[supramacist]

so what about on an na. I'm thinking figit is an na. ????

[johnathan1]

I wouldn't do it.

Read this and decide for yourself:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm

[supramacist]

very interesting.

[Figit090]

yes that is exactly the site i was referring to. bad results and i will probably never use the stuff unless i somehow get a horrible engine that has no other hope. lol. thanks for the idea though. my engine sounds better now... and i noticed the noise is worse with the clutch depressed so maybe a throwout bearing or something...not sure.

either way, all i have now is a little coolant leak i cant seem to find. i had one where the heater hose goes into the firewall...i didn't clamp it on. but i think i still have a bit of a leak, it's back by the rear suspension arm!!! i dont know how coolant got there, but it did! if anyone has an idea as where coolant might be leaking from or how it got clear to almost the rear tires let me know. it think it just went inside the frame or something.

[johnathan1]

You need to pressure test the system. You can either have a shop do it, or you can rent the tool from Autozone/Napa. Pressurize the system to ~21psi, and look around for leaks. It should be VERY apparent at those pressures.

[supramacist]

get your black light dye at o'rielly's. It's a 2 shot package. Put it in and drive it for a few miles and keep checking under it with the black light. You may even want to go to the automatic car wash and clean the belly of the beast before insertion, or right after.

I think this would be the least expensive way to find your leak, if my other redderick didn't phase you.

[Figit090]

john- thanks. i might end up trying that. i have an air compressor so maybe...just maybe...i can do this myself. i dont want to bust a leak though...whatever it is HAS to be a loose hose i didnt crimp enough. no leaks before BHG fix....so its my fault i think. i'm thinking it might be the rear water hose...i was cautious not to over-crimp and cut the hoses with the clamps so maybe its not tight enough. but the hoses that run along the oil filter side of the block (metal tubes) look wet...but they are greasy so i'm not sure what it is. the drip runs down to the bottom of the engine where it meets the tranny and there is also a drip by the rear tire still... i'm hoping its just left over from the last leak.

either way, i've narrowed it down and eliminated that other leak so now its minor... few drips after each run so its much slower than before. just as long as it doesnt take a dump while i'm running.

supra- the die is a good idea but i think i can find it without that...i know where most if not all of the lines run, i just have to analyze caferfully enough and get some good mirrors. my firewall is shiny wet so i think its up high. unless thats just oil.

I have a pressure washer, i will wash the car this weekend underneath if i can, if not i'll be taking it to a garage with a lift with my friend and i'll search for the leak from beneath. only problem is i cant touch anything with my hands (hot).

thanks again guys. i'll be posting still but slower because its pretty much done and school has started.