Capacitor

[Fastway135]

Whats a decent/cheap capacitor to get? I am currently using a Rockford Fosgate P2002. 600w peak power 200w rms. How many Farad and all that stuff. I'm kinda new to audio related things.

[WeDgE]

Capacitors are more for show than anything. Small caps are too small to be useful...Large caps have too high of an ESR value.


If you want to upgrade your electrical system to provide stable power to your amplifiers, upgrade your alternator. :)

[supraman7mgte]

Ever hear of that Jacobs set?

[Clip]

id say stay away from caps, and go with upgrading the alternator like WeDgE suggested

[GrimJack]

Upgrading the alternator only works to a point, folks. Admittedly, I have done this as well, even so, I've had very good luck with a 1 farad cap. I think I'm running a fair bit more power than you, though. :)

Leftovers from my foolish youth...

[MassSupra89]

My friends got 2000watts to his speakers and 4500 to his sub. Also has other little electrical toys... No cap.
He beat the shit out of alternators til he finally gave in a bought a yellow top and alternator meant for that power and hasn't had problems since.

[GrimJack]

Are we talking real power, or advertised power? And what resistance is he running his amps at?

Or better yet, how high is the amperage draw from the entire system on high?

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Dave, hate to argue with you, but they're right. Caps are a waste of money. Upgrade your alternator, get a larger battery or even a seperate battery for your system, hell even run 2 alternators and you'll have plenty of amperage.

[Topher E]

Your still going to need the stored enegry to compensate for when the sub hits other wise if its drawing too much of a load the lights in the car may start to flicker. Correct me if i am wrong.

[bigaaron]

Your still going to need the stored enegry to compensate for when the sub hits other wise if its drawing too much of a load the lights in the car may start to flicker. Correct me if i am wrong.

If the alternator could hande the extra load the lights would not be dimming. Good quality amplifiers have plenty of capacitance built in. Another vote for upgrading the alternator and battery and forget the cap.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Correction made. lol

If you've got enough amperage supplied to begin with, you shouldn't be anywhere NEAR the peak output. You should have enough room to compensate for a hard punch of bass.

[bigaaron]

Correction made. lol

If you've got enough amperage supplied to begin with, you shouldn't be anywhere NEAR the peak output. You should have enough room to compensate for a hard punch of bass.

Exactly. Spend the money on a bigger amplifier instead of a cap.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

:D Aaron why the fuck didn't you order a goddamn hoodie? I don't care if you're in Egypt and it's 130*--you need a fucking hoodie!!!

[bigaaron]

:D Aaron why the fuck didn't you order a goddamn hoodie? I don't care if you're in Egypt and it's 130*--you need a fucking hoodie!!!

Ok fine then, hook it up XXL biatch! :biglaugh:

[Shawndude]

Correction made. lol

If you've got enough amperage supplied to begin with, you shouldn't be anywhere NEAR the peak output. You should have enough room to compensate for a hard punch of bass.

Depends how fast your alternator regulator circuit is. Some are faster than others.

Bass hits ----> you go from 20 Amp draw to 40 Amp draw for a split second. Alternator either adjusts right away.....or it waits a split second and then adjusts.....but by then the lights have dimmed and the amplifiers are not drawing the current since we're between bass hits so the regulator overshoots its mark a bit. Repeat that cycle, for that lovely disco light show

It's a hit and miss since even "identical" alternators will have different lag in voltage regulation. The way to gauge it, is to see what the overall average voltage is with the system cranking. If the alternator is too small, your average voltage will droop when playing bass heavy stuff. If it's big enough but just has a lazy regulator, your average voltage will be fine, but your lights will still dim to the beat. A capacitor may help in that case, depending how drastic the situation is.

Most electronic volt meters will give you a good average display. To see instantaneous voltages you can use a cheapo non-dampened analog meter or a portable oscilloscope with time logging (nice toys).

[bigaaron]

Depends how fast your alternator regulator circuit is. Some are faster than others.

Bass hits ----> you go from 20 Amp draw to 40 Amp draw for a split second. Alternator either adjusts right away.....or it waits a split second and then adjusts.....but by then the lights have dimmed and the amplifiers are not drawing the current since we're between bass hits so the regulator overshoots its mark a bit. Repeat that cycle, for that lovely disco light show




That's where the battery upgrade comes in. A good battery like an Optima has more capacitance then a standard battery and will charge quicker and handle higher output amperage spikes without dropping voltage.

[born2drv]

Like others have said, I'd always suggest to get a alternator and a optima battery before the cap....

But even a modest stereo, say 500W RMS can cause the lights to dim when the bass hits, I guess it depends on the health of your alternator/battery.

A while ago I ran one 4-ch phoenix gold amp (about 500W RMS) to run components up front and 2 subs in the back, and it was pushed the entire 500W, lights dimmed like crazy, added the 1F cap and all was good... until the alternator died.

Now 5 yrs later different setup... I've installed a redtop (relocated to the back) and a mr2 100amp alternator from autozone (lifetime warranty), I have a 600WRMS amp running at about 400WRMS to 4 speakers (no subs yet, no cap yet either) and no dimming at all for me. Later on I'll probably throw in a sub with another 600W amplifier and a capacitor, but even 1F would be sufficient. 2F is for much larger stereos, anything more is overkill I would say.

The capacitor is always a good idea though to prolong the life of your alternator and battery.

[born2drv]

BTW: When I added my cap a long time ago, it resulted in much cleaner sound too... so for sound quality, it doesn't hurt at all and you could actually benefit a lot.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

*sighs* anyone who thinks cap's provide anything beneficial needs to visit here:
http://www.caraudiocentral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1888&highlight=capacitor

Glasswolf/KikiTheCat is probably THE most knowledgable car audio tech I've ever run into.

[Shawndude]

That's where the battery upgrade comes in. A good battery like an Optima has more capacitance then a standard battery and will charge quicker and handle higher output amperage spikes without dropping voltage.

With the engine running, you would need to drop down to battery voltage, for the battery to do any good at all. Battery is nothing but an extra load on the alternator with the engine running. Guess what happens once your alternator is overworked enough to drop down to battery voltage?

Basic electronics is lost on people willing to spend thousands of dollars on noise makers.

But this is exactly what I didn't want to see in a MKIII sound section. Same old questions asked thousands of times on tons of other car sound forums answered wrong most of the time anyway. Topics which are in no way special or related to the MKIII.

Shuffles off....

[bigaaron]

edit: <removed rant>

Ok, without me getting all huffy, an Optima battery will help with lights dimming as much as a cap, plus it has a higher amp hour rating then a standard battery, plus it will not leak, plus it costs less then a good 1 farad cap.

Maybe your car audio system makes noise, but all I hear from mine is music bro!

[born2drv]

I don't remember how old my alternator and battery were at the time when I added the cap a while back. All I remember is it made a big difference cleaning the sound up... before it would sound very distorted, not engine noise or anything, just you could hear the amplifier was struggling to get enough power and would crap out at high output. After the cap was added that problem went away.

You could possibly get the same results by upgrading your battery and alterator first... (like I did recently), but I still say a cap can't hurt. (just my personal experience don't flame me please) ;)

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

born--what you just said means that your amplifier was drawing too much from your alternator. You pretty much just made me and Aaron's point...:D

[IJ.]

1.21 GigaWatts Baby!

http://www.monkeyrivertown.com/images/up/flux%20capacitor.jpg

[born2drv]

glad i could help out ;)

btw - i got a pic of me next to the delorian from back to the future, i'm gonna try to find it :biglaugh:

[bigaaron]

1.21 GigaWatts Baby!

http://www.monkeyrivertown.com/images/up/flux%20capacitor.jpg

It's a MR FUSION!

[IJ.]

Not quite big guy ;)
(No wonder the kids are arguing with ya! )

http://www.sergioleone.net/dm-94.jpg

[bigaaron]

[QUOTE=IJ.]Not quite big guy ;)
(No wonder the kids are arguing with ya! )

Oh no! Not you too IJ!

[Fuzz420]

caps are a waste of money. Money is better off spent elsewhere like a h/o alternator and better battery(yellow/bluetop, stinger,kinetik)

It all depends on your goals if you just want something to help support a medium small amp to play, lets say some door speakers, then a cap is for you.

Now if your wanting all-out shove then a battery is for you.

Me personally i have run 2 12's on our factory alternator(im n/a 70amp) with an Orion2250 "the beast amp"(raw old school power) Thecurrent draw on this puppy is well in to the 300 amp range.I was advised to use 0/1 gauge but i used 4 gauge instead. Let me tell you i couldnt play jack hard with the stock battery with out watching the stock volt meter dip into the 9's!!!!!!!

I upgraded ONLY the battery, and my voltage would drop below 11.5volts(all readings from a stop while foot is on brake/ w accessories). In a highpower system i wont run optima, they lack relief valves so when they get hot they go boom.My kinetik does have relief valves and they badboy is a bad mamajamma. http://www.kinetikaudio.com/hc1400.asp the prices listed on the page is higher than what they retail for, but as they say quality comes with a price. Ive had mine for a year an 3months now and its still read 12.6 on my multimeter when cold!!!!

*with my setup as mentioned with a major air leak in my box, i mustered a 142.8 on the mic

[GrimJack]

I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree, folks. I already have an upgraded battery and alternator, and the cap still made a huge difference. I rarely turn my system up anymore, it's a leftover from my foolish youth, but when it starts pulling upwards of 80 amps average, there were problems. I managed to pick up a 1 farad cap from a clearance house where they sell off goods from places that have gone tits up for pennies on the dollar, plunked that in, and no problems since.

PS: I rather dislike talking in watts, as every manufacturer spews total BS when it comes to power ratings - unless you are buying competition amps that have been bench tested and certified.

[Fuzz420]

I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree, folks. I already have an upgraded battery and alternator, and the cap still made a huge difference. I rarely turn my system up anymore, it's a leftover from my foolish youth, but when it starts pulling upwards of 80 amps average, there were problems. I managed to pick up a 1 farad cap from a clearance house where they sell off goods from places that have gone tits up for pennies on the dollar, plunked that in, and no problems since.

PS: I rather dislike talking in watts, as every manufacturer spews total BS when it comes to power ratings - unless you are buying competition amps that have been bench tested and certified.


well your case is slightly different considering you already have the battery and alt. Usually at this fork in the road, the majority of people at this stage opt for a secondary battery in the trunk.But im sure since all the priorities are correct in your system your capacitor is behaving how it should, supplying a constant voltage to the amp easing the load on the circuitry. I believe a lot of people dont understand u have to have at least the alt upgraded before the capacitor is acutually running efficiently, and not cause more harm than good, because the capacitor them selves is a huge load in the circuit

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

CEA certified power :)

Alpine amps have been doing SURPRISINGLY well with this. They all come with one of those "birth certificate"things from where it was tested, and they've been anywhere from 10-100 watts over advertised RMS power!!!

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

BTW--since when is there a "Supra Audio" section???

[Fuzz420]

BTW--since when is there a "Supra Audio" section???


Since now, its a kick-ass section, too bad theres only 2 threads right now:naughty:

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

its a kick-ass section, too bad theres only 2 threads right now:naughty:
+173 :D

I'm going to the Acoustic Edge in OKC for 11 weeks sometime in august, I'll be coming back with lots of custom fiberglass pieces in my soop :)

[supraman7mgte]

1.21 GigaWatts Baby!

http://www.monkeyrivertown.com/images/up/flux%20capacitor.jpg
THAT is friggin' funny!

[bluemax]

Capacators act as high pass filters. So if you have a capacator with a low enough cross over point, it will stabalize the power to the amp better. Capacators are used in the speaker cross over (typically). Long time ago my brother had to use a capacator in the power line to his stereo because he had that buzzing noise in it. The amp itself has storage capacators for peak power.

So Grim, what difference did the capacator do in your stereo?

Check this site out:
http://www.bcae1.com/xoorder.htm

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Capacators act as high pass filters. So if you have a capacator with a low enough cross over point, it will stabalize the power to the amp better. Capacators are used in the speaker cross over (typically). Long time ago my brother had to use a capacator in the power line to his stereo because he had that buzzing noise in it. The amp itself has storage capacators for peak power.

So Grim, what difference did the capacator do in your stereo?

Check this site out:
http://www.bcae1.com/xoorder.htm

What you have just stated is true, however most (read: most) amplifiers have high-pass filters built in; so as long as you've correctly set your HPF you should be all good without a cap.
That buzzing noise your brother had was because of incorrect grounding--it's alternator whine.

[GrimJack]

So Grim, what difference did the capacator do in your stereo?

Much higher volume before any type of noise starts to creep in, and the rest of my electrical system doesn't drop to a lower voltage anymore.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Grim, you may've encountered one of the "lucky bugs" in fact...I think it ate you and shat you back out--lol. I've never heard of a cap providing less noise at higher volume levels...oh well more power to ya!!

[GrimJack]

The noise was distortion from the amp's built in caps running out of power - on the sub amp. On the other amp, it wasn't getting a nice clean 12+ volts anymore because the sub amp was eating too much of the power.

I'll agree that modern day competition grade amps should never run out of power as long as they are run within their specs.

However, I'm running old school amps at very low resistances, and using external actively cooled heatsinks and the cap to keep them stable. I've grenaded a LOT of stereo equipment learning exactly how much you can 'push' beyond the factory specs. Not such a big deal when you are working in a stereo shop, so factory returns aren't difficult. I've done everything from loosing the magic smoke in many components all the way to heating up an amp to the point that the solder on the mainboard inside melted and all the components fell off, making a heavy duty baby rattle out of a $2000 amp.

Unfortunately (well, kindof) I don't work in a stereo shop anymore, and haven't for many years now. On the other side of the coin, I make enough money in the computer software industry now that I can afford to pay regular retail for anything I really care to own. Furthermore, since I passed the age of 30, I rarely push the system hard enough to roast anything anymore.

[Fuzz420]

I love old school power, my amp is a blast from the past, straight '96 old school power.Orion 2250 "The Beast". Gotta love ebay :)

[GrimJack]

Those Orion HCCA series amps are kick ass. Right up there with 1st Gen Rodek, 7th & 8th gen HiFonics, and Zapco gear.

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Zapco...:drool:

[vdragonmpc]

Capacitors are more for show than anything. Small caps are too small to be useful...Large caps have too high of an ESR value.


If you want to upgrade your electrical system to provide stable power to your amplifiers, upgrade your alternator. :)

I have been installing stereos for a VERY long time... I can tell you the most expensive BUT cometition spanking addition was adding a 170 amp alternator to my system. I have tried marine batteries when they were the thing... Dual batteries even 3-4 batteries at a bass off...

Capacitors helped with my digital dash shutting down on bass notes in my 85... They also helped with sound quality. Remember many amps are rated at 14.5 to 15 amps NOT 12-14. Guess where your voltages range when running your car sitting?
Optima batteries are mainly good marketting. I have detonated several over the years... The parts stores wont listen when you return them dead and try to recharge them. >Hint< Optima batteries DO NOT QUICKCHARGE!!! its spectacular when Advance does this... To explosive results. Optimas have a great warranty and just rock if you use them in the trunk as a secondary... I like either Interstate Megatrons or Die Hard golds as the primary... Seems to last the best

I run 1/0 from front to rear on my install and it has a few benefits... The amps
with this kind of set up seem to run better and more efficient...

V

[Fuzz420]

Those Orion HCCA series amps are kick ass. Right up there with 1st Gen Rodek, 7th & 8th gen HiFonics, and Zapco gear.


Mine actually is an xtr series, but very similar. Ive had indept conversions with people that repair these amps. They told me the hcca was great and all but a huge burden.Everybody explained to me that these amps draw so much current it was ridiculous. He said it ran so hott, that the fan in the middle was like a blow dyer blowing the heat back on it!!!The only difference between my xtr and the hcca is how they rate the power.The top model hcca puts out roughly 1600w @ .5 ohms. My xtr does 1000w @ 4 ohms, its not reccomended to go below 4 ohms on the xtr, but the guy i spoke with assured me they were 99.9% the same amp and the only difference inside was the power and ground connectors allowing for more current flow, and of course one being red and one being black.

Heres a little secret he told me the orion xtr 2250 and the equivelant hcca(sorry brain fart cant remember the model)were over rated, the hcca slightly more than the xtr. He said if i wanted the most bang for the buck(on ebay)orion amp i should get the Xtr-2400.Its rated at 1200 x 2 @ 2ohms.He also said it typically runs cheaper than the two afore mentioned models(whichs is also true).It said it only draws around 200ish amps as opposed to 300 plus, and he said it stays 10x's cooler than the other ones when ran within spec.

Sorry bout the long post, stereo equpiment is an another addiction itself

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

Sorry bout the long post, stereo equpiment is an another addiction itself
Indeed it is good sir.

[born2drv]

Just installed my 1.0F cap...

Recap on setup: my system has a 600WRMS kicker amp.... 5-1/4" + tweet up front, 8" coaxials in the back... no subwoofer (yet) but I get decent bass out of those speakers.... running with a redtop optima battery relocated in back... brand new 100amp mr2 alternator.... 0-gauge wire all the way front to back. I have a solid 12.9-13.3V when the car is not running, and 14.9-15.2V when it is.

Anyhow: I noticed a huge difference when I put my cap in... my lights no longer flicker with the music (before it was just slightly noticeable, now it is gone)... and the sound is much more cleaned up.... less distortion.

Your mileage may vary.