Vid of my engine running / also whats the sound?

[jimi87-t]

Ok, I got her running, you can read more about that in my build thread (link in my sig). So here is a video, but the main reason I'm posting this is for you guys to help me figure out the clatter noise at about 2000 RPMs. It sounds as if it's coming from the front of the engine.

And just to let you know, she was already warmed up before I restarted it. (you can hear the electric fan)

the beast (http://media.putfile.com/running12)



.

[kewlcoconut]

well....i had a similar problem a year and a half ago. mine was a rod knock....

[jimi87-t]

The thing that really sucks is this is a fresh "rebuild"......:mad:

[rakkasan]

I'll bet my left testicle that your crank pulley is loose.

[kewlcoconut]

left testicle eh? haha....yea the crank pulley could also be loose. can cause the same sound.

[jimi87-t]

I'll go out and try to tighten it more, but I got it as tight as I could before she started rolling (in 5th gear, with E-brake on), but I won't be able to restart her again until tomorrow, too loud to run it at night (old people next door)
I hope thats all it is. If it's knock, it wasn't my fault, I've only started it 5 times after putting the "new" motor in. And always had full oil and oil PSI.:dunno:

[supra90turbo]

::fingers crossed for Jimi::

Jeez, man... I dont know what to say... I'd really hate to tell you what youd hate to hear...

[jimi87-t]

I know man........I know.......:nono:

[jimi87-t]

Well last night I tightened everything I could get to. I even took off the PS belt just incase it was the pump :/ . Well no dice, still the same noise. I went around the engine with a stethoscope and could not pin point the sound. It did seem louder on the exhaust side of the engine, I could even here it in the waste gate actuator:icon_conf So it's just resonating, the weird thing is, I can't hear it in the valve covers.

I wish I knew a good shop close by, before I get ahold of Jarco about the warranty.

[rakkasan]

Well last night I tightened everything I could get to. I even took off the PS belt just incase it was the pump :/ . Well no dice, still the same noise. I went around the engine with a stethoscope and could not pin point the sound. It did seem louder on the exhaust side of the engine, I could even here it in the waste gate actuator:icon_conf So it's just resonating, the weird thing is, I can't hear it in the valve covers.

I wish I knew a good shop close by, before I get ahold of Jarco about the warranty.

You do know that the crank pulley requires like 440 lbs of torque, right? My number might be off a little, but you have to be a eff'n ape to get thet much torque on it.

I had the same noise last year, and it didn't end until I put an impact wrench on it.

[IJ.]

197 ft/lbs ;)

[americanjebus]

197 ft/lbs ;)

that sounds so much more reasonable/ possible.

[rakkasan]

197 ft/lbs ;)

Ok, but that still in the orangutang range.:biglaugh:

[MDCmotorsports]

Sounds like a rod knock or a loose flywheel or clutch part.

Push the clutch in and try it again.

[suprarcr89]

my friend daniel had the same sound after we rebuilt his engine turns out it was the alt. same exact sound

could be that or you know...

did you put plenty of assembly lube on the crank and parts while you were assembling the bottom end.

i hope for the best for you.

[PorterzSupra]

**** OMG!!! I just got that same EXACT noise and it started about 5 days ago!!! I was gonna also put a video up just like u did but now I dont have to because its the same thing!! I though the valves were warped or needed adjustment so when u figure it out let me know cuz I was about to replace the motor!!!! It tends to be the loudest under light throttle at low-medium rpms and seems to go away at higher rpm. For the ppl that say its the crank/alt or clutch they need to hear the noise in person because it sounds nothing like any of that it sounds like rod knock but I dont know what could cause it? bad/warn rod bearings?? it only get louder as the days go on =( I feel your pain....****

[supra90turbo]

20w50 oil for you Porterz.

[PorterzSupra]

Hey, is that a 2JZ manifold on a 7MGTE motor...??
First I thought it was a 93-98 motor then I looked closer now im confused lol

(lower right portion of the video)

[siman]

GET THOSE BREATHERS OFF YOUR VALVE COVERS AND PUT ON A CATCH CAN.

IT WILL BLOW YOUR REAR AND FRONT MAIN SEALS.
when those things get too much oil vaper clogged in them......there is no way to vent the pressure from the crank case...you will have ANOTHER PROBLEM.

ask me how I know.... :(

Also, you have something loose, thats not rod knock....its higher pitched than rod knock.....

Piston slap maybe?

-Jonathan

[siman]

197 ft/lbs ;)


I was about to say 190 ft/lbs:naughty:

[jimi87-t]

Well I tried pushing the clutch in and revving it, no change.

The crank pulley is torqued well into the 200s, my torque wrench goes up to 150, it clicked right away, so I used a breaker bar with pipe and torqued that as hard as I could.

It's not the alt, the sound isn't coming from there, it was quiet on the alt and bracket with the stethoscope.


Hey, is that a 2JZ manifold on a 7MGTE motor...??


Look at my build thread (link in sig) that will explain the intake.


GET THOSE BREATHERS OFF YOUR VALVE COVERS AND PUT ON A CATCH CAN.

Piston slap maybe?

-Jonathan

Yeah they are coming off, once I get my catch.

I was thinking maybe slap, but I've never heard slap before so I don't know. The motor was built by Jarco, they had to bore it out .040 over and put in over sized pistons (stock style pistons). They also had to grind the crank and use thicker bearings.

I took it for a small drive today to see what would happen, After the motor got fully warm, it seemed to get a little louder. But I really don't know what to think, there are no good shops close by, so I may drive it to the dealer to see what they say. I hate dealers but it's the only thing remotely close to me.

[MDCmotorsports]

Hey before you get all worried and freakn out... just a thought that is some what easy to do.

Take the cam covers off.

Inspec the cams for any pucks being spit.

If there aren't any, check to make sure no retainers came off the springs.

Last, empty the oil and check to make sure there aren't any shavings in the oil and or fine metal dust.

[IJ.]

I haven't heard/seen the vid as it's a QT file but you might want to try unclipping/reclipping the Injectors one at a time to see if you can isolate the cylinder.

This will tell you a few things which cylinder it is and if the clatter stops it points to rod knock.

If the crank was cut past 2nd undersize then it's possible it's scuffed a bearing.

[jimi87-t]

Hey before you get all worried and freakn out
Haha, I think it's too late. I will do all that and post what I find, thanks.

[jimi87-t]

I haven't heard/seen the vid as it's a QT file
I can up load it as windows media if you would like.

[IJ.]

Cool that would help!

[jimi87-t]

Ok here is the vid in Windows format. running with scissors (http://media.putfile.com/running-with-scissors76)

[IJ.]

Doesn't sound like RK it's not clacky enough.......

try unclipping the injectors one at a time and see if it changes

[MDCmotorsports]

IJ Im thinking its spit a puck or a valve stem cap has come loose...

[jimi87-t]

Ok I will see tomorrow, and thanks soooo much for all the help so far guys

[IJ.]

It sounds a little quick to be a shim sounds more 1:1 with the crank speed just not deep/clacky enough to be RK....

[jimi87-t]

Ok, I just pulled the valve covers off, and nothing was out of place. And there were no signs of scaring or dry running. All puck and shims looked good.
With the covers off I turned it over by hand, I heard the noise on the first rotation (dry turn I guess) every time it would start to turn, i would hear it (not as loud as when running). It was not coming from the valve train, and I could not feel it in the ratchet. After the first rotation, it stopped making the sound.

[GrimJack]

This just happened to another buddy of mine on a fresh rebuild. Sounds the same, and seems to happen at the same points in the throttle response, too.

You'll need a buddy.

Put a wrench on the front main pulley bolt and put your buddy on the wrench. Slide under the car and pull off one of the inspection plates on the tranny. Shine a flashlight in there, put it in neutral and have your buddy crank the engine a bit.

Betcha the flywheel slops back and forth, as the bolts on it are loose and likely getting looser by the minute.

[jimi87-t]

Thanks Grim I'll have to check that tomorrow also. I used lock tight on the bolts. Is this a problem from it being an aluminum flywheel, needing to be heat cycled? (This is my first AL flywheel.)

[IJ.]

Jimi: I used an Al flywheel last build and didn't do anything special/different at all and it was fine.

[GrimJack]

No idea what caused it, I'm afraid. it was a PITA to diagnose, especially as we were at a Supra meet a good 6 hour drive away from home.

Luckily a local Supra driver loaned us the use of his driveway - my buddy pulled the tranny, fixed it, and bolted it back in the very next day, then drove home.

[PorterzSupra]

**** I have the EXACT same noise and come to think of it I just had a shop put a new stage 3 clutch in about a month ago hmmmm... it dont really sound like the flywheel the sound is clearly coming from the engine besides there would probably be some sort of vibration if it was the flywheel when you reved the motor, I have had that happen and it will vibrate the seats ****

[suprarcr89]

flywheel bolts loose happened to me once... rare but does happen... when it happened to me i thought it was a rod knock. happened about 2 1/2 years ago i just remembered when you said something about the flywheel.

[jimi87-t]

Ok, I went out and did some more trouble shooting today.

I took the inspection plate off the trany to see if there was slop in the flywheel, nope, it moved right along with the crank, no slop.

While I was doing this I could hear the clank, so I put it in gear. With the breaker bar I would apply pressure (to the crank pulley bolt) I could clearly hear the sound. So I had someone on the breaker bar as I went around with the stethoscope to listen. I started at the trany, not to noticeable on the bell housing, I put the stethoscope on the pressure plate, (if it was the fly, I would for sure hear it), nope, I could barely hear it again.

So I put the stethoscope on the oil pan.......LOUD CLANK, very noticeable, the loudest spot by far.

So it is definitely coming from inside the crack case. So the only way to pin point it is to pull the engine :wtc:

[IJ.]

Jimi: It's a long shot but try running it with the dipstick out..

[jimi87-t]

Nope, no change in sound with the dip stick out. Didn't run it, but used the breaker bar to move the crank, sounded the same.

[IJ.]

Bugger :(

The 7M curse strikes again......

[jimi87-t]

So why would this happen? Someone must have assembled it poorly? It was sent to me fully built, (long block)

[IJ.]

If they cut it 2nd under or smaller this is under the Toyota hardening add to this if it was built tight and they didn't use a good moly assembly lube it could have scuffed a bearing on the first startup.

Each time it cold starts a bit more bearing material is transferred to the crank as the crank is soft enough for it to stick and so on until you get RK....

This is just my theory there may be another explanation but having read many of these sort of posts over the last couple of years they all seem to have these points in common!

[jimi87-t]

Thanks IJ

[IJ.]

I really hope it isn't Jimi but it's not looking good :(.

[PorterzSupra]

My engine has 140K and I have the same noise, just started the past week, its not only if somone puts it together wrong mine happened for another unknown reason!!

[jimi87-t]

^^^^Yeah, well I could live with that 140k before having problems. Not even 5 miles and shes probably toast.

Are you sure you were not running low on oil, thats what normally causes bearing failure?

[jimi87-t]

Also, when I drain my oil I will be looking for metal, and dragging the oil draining container with a magnet to find any metal.
If I find metal in the oil, does this mean the fresh rebuilt turbo is toast? Or would the filter catch all it? I just need to know so I can bring that up when I contact the engine company.

[IJ.]

Any metal you'll find should be non ferrous at this stage (I'd hope it's not down to the backing plate of the bearing so soon)

Unless the Oil Filter's really blocked and bypassing it should have caught it all before it's found it's way into the Turbo!

Did they mention which brand bearings were used?

[jimi87-t]

No they wouldn't tell me the brands on the parts, I asked (mainly about the pistons) But they just said "OEM quality".......um yeah, now it seems I should have been more persistent.

[IJ.]

Recently I saw some "King" bearings that were totalled in a short period of time and looked mashed with the bearing material all squeezed out the sides!

[jimi87-t]

I'll be taking pics of whatever I find, and posting them up.

[daledoe]

Something is loose atlest thats what I think????

[jpeek29208]

sounds top end to me...

[dbsupra90]

thats the odd thing about supras. almost sounds like a valve but it comes from the bottom end. esp since you heard the sound in the oil pan. did you ever pull the inj clips or a plug wire at the coil to determine if the sound goes away or reduces? that would def be my next step. altho hearing the clunk by turning the motor that def doesnt sound good. id try to see if you can isolate it to a particular cyl.

good luck

[jimi87-t]

Thanks guys, but just in case you didn't read the whole thread (I know its long) here is a recap.

With it running:
I went around the engine with a stethoscope and could not pin point the sound. It did seem louder on the exhaust side of the engine, I could even here it in the waste gate actuator So it's just resonating, the weird thing is, I can't hear it in the valve covers.


Ok, I just pulled the valve covers off, and nothing was out of place. And there were no signs of scaring or dry running. All puck and shims looked good.
With the covers off I turned it over by hand, I heard the noise on the first rotation (dry turn I guess) every time it would start to turn, i would hear it (not as loud as when running). It was not coming from the valve train


Ok, I went out and did some more trouble shooting today.

I took the inspection plate off the trany to see if there was slop in the flywheel, nope, it moved right along with the crank, no slop.

While I was doing this I could hear the clank, so I put it in gear. With the breaker bar I would apply pressure (to the crank pulley bolt) I could clearly hear the sound. So I had someone on the breaker bar as I went around with the stethoscope to listen. I started at the trany, not to noticeable on the bell housing, I put the stethoscope on the pressure plate, (if it was the fly, I would for sure hear it), nope, I could barely hear it again.

So I put the stethoscope on the oil pan.......LOUD CLANK, very noticeable, the loudest spot by far.

[jimi87-t]

thats the odd thing about supras. almost sounds like a valve but it comes from the bottom end. esp since you heard the sound in the oil pan. did you ever pull the inj clips or a plug wire at the coil to determine if the sound goes away or reduces? that would def be my next step. altho hearing the clunk by turning the motor that def doesnt sound good. id try to see if you can isolate it to a particular cyl.

good luck

Yeah I have yet to restart it, I did pull the plugs, and it seem to be louder coming from #6. But it's hard to tell

[NDBoost]

ive got a clanking sound coming from my motor, just happened after i swapped the turbo's out too. Im in stage 1 of 3 (denial), acceptance comes when i get a garage and some free money to buy a used block to rebuild.

*crosses fingers* supra just has to last until then.

[suprarcr89]

I'll be taking pics of whatever I find, and posting them up.


will jarco hold up to there warrenty if you pull the oilpan off i know alot of engine builders wont hold up to there warrenty if the engine has been gone into...

[jimi87-t]

The motor was sent to me with no pan, so they better not try pulling any of that on me.

[suprarcr89]

no if they didnt send an oilpan with it then your in the good as long as you dont unbolt any bearing caps....

[tlo86]

my car makes a similar sound, but you can hear it at startup. and throughout the accel. range

(can you hear yours when you first start it up? i cant really tell that elec fan is loud :))

[jimi87-t]

No, I could not hear it on start up, but I could hear it when I turned it over by hand. :/

[supra90turbo]

So what's happening with this, Jimi?
Did you send the engine back to Jarco? I have a feeling they're a pretty stand-up company, they seem to be, anyway. I have not done any business with them.

This time, be real persistent about the bearing brand they're about to use. ;)

:EDIT: nvm. checked your build thread. mail order rebuilds.. lol. still be persistent about what brand of bearing they're gonna use! Hope it works out for ya, bud.

[jimi87-t]

This time, be real persistent about the bearing brand they're about to use. ;)


Thanks, So brand should I talk to them about?

[IJ.]

Jimi: Just about anything EXCEPT King aluminium bearings......

If everything is right with the lubrication system the bearings should only ever touch the crank on a cold start so they're not as hyper critical as people believe.

[jimi87-t]

Thanks IJ. Thats what I was thinking, there had to be something clogged.

[IJ.]

Jimi: If it was built tight and the crank is 2nd or 3rd undersize this can happen really easily :(.

[RaiderRC]

I had the same sound for about 3000 miles... then one day it got really loud... try and pull the spark plugs and if it goes away when you pull one of the cyclinders you will instantly know... I did and it lead me to the conclusion :(

[mrsoup]

hi dude thats rod knock . bet they didnt clean out the crank shaft or take out the oil gallery plugs ... ...

ask me how i know

ps did you prim the oil pump and use a new o ring on the screen flange ?

[jimi87-t]

Yeah I primed it, and everything is new.

I just got off the phone with them and they said they pulled the bearings and didn't find any that were bad. Tomorrow they said they will pull the head off and see if they can find whats up.

I guess a bad wrist pin, or improperly sized piston? But we will see. Hopefully they're not trying to pull something over on me...........But they don't seem to be the type to do that.

[tlo86]

my knocking was from the cam gears, if that helps =P

[jimi87-t]

my knocking was from the cam gears, if that helps =P

Yeah, I crank'd those suckers down too, no change.

[IJ.]

It was the "7M Gnome" with his little hammer ;)!

[jimi87-t]

It was the "7M Gnome" with his little hammer ;)!

DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!:biglaugh: If I catch him, do I get 3 wishes?

[IJ.]

LOL 3 isn't nearly enough to get a 7M reliable ;)!

[n2fishin69]

My 86.5 Supra has the exact same noise and symptoms! I am in the process now of pulling the engine because I suspect rod knock. Sunday, I was taking the flywheel bolts off and one of them came off with very little effort.
I am beginning to wonder if I should put everything back together now. I got this car very cheap. They had recently had the engine rebuilt and this noise started within a week.

N2fishin69
Satsuma, AL

[927mgtepat]

Jim, I hope everything works out for you. What Brand TB are you running?

[jimi87-t]

My 86.5 Supra has the exact same noise and symptoms! I am in the process now of pulling the engine because I suspect rod knock. Sunday, I was taking the flywheel bolts off and one of them came off with very little effort.


I would bet that is your problem!


Jim, I hope everything works out for you. What Brand TB are you running?

I replied to your thread before seeing this, but yeah, its a 70mm Professional Products Power tb for a 5.0 stang.

[n2fishin69]

[QUOTE=jimi87-t]I would bet that is your problem!


I found my problem. I found a spun bearing on # 5 !!
:cry:

n2fishin69

[jimi87-t]

That sucks man, sorry to hear.

[JDM 1JZ]

when my orignal motor went, it sounded compeltely healthy at idle like that does, and it would up til 3000rpm then it would start knocking, i later found out it was piston slap. then while i was building another motor i used the car here and there to move it around cause it would block some of my other cars sometimes, if i drove the car and shifted out before 3 grand u'd never know the car was fucked

[mrsoup]

hi dude did you find out what was up with your engine

[jimi87-t]

Yep it was a bad crank, She is back together now and running, you can read more in my build thread:my build (http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10467)