WTF is Bitron 4 Real?

tekdeus

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"The FTC also charged that zMax is nothing but mineral oil, and that it actually causes a 50% increase in bearing wear, proven by Oil-Chem's own testing"

"...The bottom line seems to be that zMax works as a solvent of some kind, so if you have a sludged-up engine it'll help clean it up"


JMDigital said:
Here is a link to the lawsuit agains zmax. Its almost at the bottom of the page.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/index.html
 

87Superdupra

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I started this goddam thread and I was intrigued becuase I read that net sales was 100 million, If the product has sold that much, and if it is really the next big thing, there is enough money to do an organized test on real engines!!!! I appreciate someone taking the time to do that video but I don't really know what I'm lookin at, a bearing being torqued by a wrench? Show SF a real test on multiple engines against a control and if it is that good EVERYONE WILL BUY IT. I'm interested for sure though, I'm just very well experienced that things that sound too good to be true...ARE.
 

JoeC

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^^^ exactly.. and if it's proven to be SO good then there will be more than just supra owners running it.. Every one and there mother in the whole world would buy it. But I see a bunch of hype with no scientific proof.

Like what my math professor says: give exact answers, not approximations.
 

tekdeus

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I found some lab results from the late 90's done in the UK.
https://uf1.com/wcegmem/bitron_engine.pdf
https://uf1.com/wcegmem/bitron_gas-petro.pdf

The rights to the product line were recently bought out by new owners here in Vancouver. I'm sure they'll do new tests in the future. In the meantine, I don't know what additional proof I can provide besides my friction demo videos and a million testimonials.

I know it works when 3-month-old drops off my Supra's disptsick can handle 600 lbs of shearing friction between 2 hardened steel surfaces on my machine, that's plenty of proof for me. Anyone in the Vancouver area is welcome to have a look, and even do the test for yourself, maybe test your existing oils? Either way, it's no skin off my nose, but perhaps some skin off your bearings! :)

In response to the post about engines running with no oil, I found this on the engine oil bible website:
The manufacturers of the DuraLube engine additive were dealt a smack in the face by a Car & Driver Magazine report into their product. C&D tried the same tests as Consumer Reports did on ProLong, and had similar results, but in a much quicker time. The C&D engines treated with DuraLube lasted a staggering 11 seconds without oil. You do the math.

koulee said:
Do we SMers get a discount? :)

Seriously though, some people believe that a well engineered oil like Amsoil, RedLine, Royal Purple, and Mobil 1 don't need anything else added to it--regardless of whether or not its an additive or something like Bi-Tron.
If this were true, we'd see a lot less rod knock, spun bearing, and fried turbo threads. And yes, you guys get a deal! I'd rather make little or no profit and help out the community.

JoeC said:
^^^ exactly.. and if it's proven to be SO good then there will be more than just supra owners running it.. Every one and there mother in the whole world would buy it.
This is the main difference between referral marketing (network marketing, people telling other people), and the usual TV commercial/retail store distribution. It happens in pockets across the continent. Everyone and their mothers are using the products, just in the areas where there are the most people promoting the products (i.e. Kelowna). TV is not the only way to sell a product, in fact, statistics show that people are becoming increasingly numb to conventional advertising (TV, print, etc)
 
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Clip

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maybe ill get some for the truck. its gotta do a little good, cause this thing is already unkillable.

:drink1:
 

Jaguar_5

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How do we get this 'Good Deal' you speak of?
I'm definitely interested in running this stuff once my rebuild is done!
 

suprageezer

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IF this stuff was good, Chevron or one of the large oil companies would buy them use it as their secret sauce additive. Increase market share 10 fold and the rest would be history. BUT that aint that case.
 

Jaguar_5

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artmo said:
so would this solution stuff be good for breaking in a rebuilt engine?
I hear it's best to just use a single weight, IE 30W, not 5w30, additive-free, non-synthetic oil
So thats what i'll be using til the engine is fully broken in!

Afterwards I plan on running Royal Purple 10w40 + BiTron
 

tekdeus

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I'd be willing to offer free shipping to SM'ers for orders over $75. Definitely wait till after the FULL engine break-in period in to use this stuff. That's the best plan to preserve a top-notch compression engine.

Jaguar_5 said:
How do we get this 'Good Deal' you speak of?
I'm definitely interested in running this stuff once my rebuild is done!
 

JoeC

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can someone do some research on that facility that did those reports. Just reading them I see a biased opinion. I'm at work and printed off the reports to show my brother to see his outlook on the matter. I personally would like a known source to test these products. I feel that us consumers shouldn't need to put our money together to do so, but the owners, and retailers should provide us with current tests. Not 7 years old under a different owner.
 

Feuerstoss

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JoeC said:
can someone do some research on that facility that did those reports. Just reading them I see a biased opinion. I'm at work and printed off the reports to show my brother to see his outlook on the matter. I personally would like a known source to test these products. I feel that us consumers shouldn't need to put our money together to do so, but the owners, and retailers should provide us with current tests. Not 7 years old under a different owner.
I agree. It would be nice to do some current lab tests at a known lab with this stuff to see how it pans out. If the test results are good, I'd definately consider using it. I do know chemical engineering has come a long long way in other fields, but I think that independent testing is critical to marketing a product such as this to knowledgable people who expect results.

I'm not saying a lubricant such as this is 'too good to be true', obviously... I'm just saying 'the proof is in the pudding', so to speak. We need concrete results. None of us want to blow up our cars, and therefore are really hesitant on new products claiming to promise miracles. As before, we need proof, plain as that.
 

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ive always heard to use a lightweight mineral oil to break in an engine.

as for the bitron, i think most of us are still skeptics til we can get some more results. not knocking it in any way, though.
 

JoeC

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^^ exactly, none of us are knocking this product. Personally I found it very interesting and seem's like an awesome product. I just put 2k into my motor and can't risk having a bearing failure because of someone's opinion on a product that *they* sell. Now, if I was hearing this opinion from my bro who doesn't sell this.. it'd be a little bit different, but still.

I mentioned this to my father who has been around high performance cars all his life and he said he had no clue about this product, but he said it sounded like Slick 50. He went on describing how a retailer in indiana would put slick 50 in his motor, run it for 10 minutes, then drain all the oil out of the motor and do 50 laps around the dirt track with no oil, then run in the hour long dirby with no oil and have no failure.

I noticed that slick 50 says it comes with a 50,000 mile limited warrenty while bi-tron does not. Both websites seem adequete, but i will be emailing bitron management to look for some information.
 

Figit090

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JoeC said:
....He went on describing how a retailer in indiana would put slick 50 in his motor, run it for 10 minutes, then drain all the oil out of the motor and do 50 laps around the dirt track with no oil, then run in the hour long dirby with no oil and have no failure.
like i said.... that doesnt mean it didnt do a lot of damage in the process....

that does sound pretty cool though.

i could definitly see a scam there though...how hard could it be to rig up an oiling system that added oil to the engine during the race?

just a thought....
 

JoeC

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True.. but slick 50 has been around quite a while and imo is more popular than bitron. I don't doubt there was damage done, or something was setup... but according to the pdf's we received here the slick 50 tested second to this product.
 

Turbo. Targa. Life.

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Slick 50 is goofy shit. I think it's all kinda goofy shit really. Im intrigued as BiTron is something new on the market, but if it's anything similair to slick 50 then I don't want anything to do with it.
 

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its like trying all the new stuff that comes out on the market. i'm a fanatic when it comes to new pens and pencils and shit like that, ill admit. ive always gotta try the newest stuff just to see if itll work like they say, but end up sticking with the tried and true: the zebra f402 ball-point pen and the m402 mechanical pencil. stainless steel barrel, made in japan. doesnt get much better than that.

this also goes for the car waxes and detailing stuff, except i only try the new releases from turtle wax (ice for the motherf'ing win.), mothers, or meguiars.

back on topic, i'm itching to see what this stuff will do.
 

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eww on zebras way too expensive. I go for the bic cristal (yes they spell it like that) pens and bic .07mm mechanical pencils with the factory rubber grippers. High performance at its best :D
 

tekdeus

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I'll talk to head office and let them know there is a demand for newer lab test results. I'm sure they'd be impressive.

I am convinced Slick 50 is a rip off. It contains PTFE (teflon) particles that Dupont and NASA have tested and shown to actually cause more damage than good by blocking oil passageways and clogging filters. It failed our friction test as well. Here's the video: http://www.echowavepro.com/SG_MED/SG256_Slick50.wmv
Here's a video where we show the problems with additives like Slick50 and Lucas oil (which also made no difference in our tests): http://www.echowavepro.com/SG_MED/SG256_AdditiveIssues.wmv
A video about how Bi-Tron works and how it can polish metal over time:
http://www.echowavepro.com/SG_MED/SG256_Howitworks.wmv

Just for interest's sake, some cars get much better results than others, depending on the design of the engine and fuel injectors, plus how clean/dirty it is. For example Dodge Durango owners consistently report a 10-20% increase in fuel economy (using all products including the fuel conditioner), while some Honda owners report no change in mileage. (I've never tested my Mk3 for mileage changes because I'm always doing hard pulls anyways :))

These are my personal theories:
1. Since the fuel product alters the surface tension of gasoline and it's inherent misting properties, vehicles with dirty or inefficiently designed fuel injectors will get an increase compared to one that is already clean an misting the fuel optimally, because of injector design.
2. Larger, higher horsepower engines with more cylinders consistently report greater increases in power and mileage than smaller engines. I believe that in a low-power engine, the regular film of engine oil is adequate (except on startup or overheating) and is rarely ever exceeded. In high-compression 4-cyl, 6 or 8 cylinder high-performance engines, friction becomes much more of an issue because of the more extreme forces and heat plus more overall moving parts. The more that you exceed the regular engine oil film, hence riding on the "few molecules-thick" bi-tron oil layer, the more the microscopic metal surfaces will smooth out; yielding less overall friction, reducing oil turbulence and tempurature. High tech!
 
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JoeC

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tekdeus, I think more people would find you to be a more believable retailer if you were straight forward with us. As if you weren't trying to promote a product YOU sell, but a product you find good, and that could help us out.

(aka) I noticed in your last post the first half with the videos, which have been posted before in this thread, aswell as the link in your comment have them.. seems to just be the retailer inside you trying to make money off of us.

Though, the second half of your post is what i personally find attractive to me. You stated your opinion and backed it up with several examples of why fuel products work the way they do, in certain applications. I'm not sure about every one else, but that made me feel fuzzy inside. Like reading IJ's build thread and learning something new.

I'm just hoping that you are here to help the community as a whole, and not have the community help you. If you could talk with the head guys about the tests that would be fantastic, hopefully I receive an email from them sometime within a day or two with something that I can shoot back to you guys. I hope it isn't something we already have seen. By the way tekdeus, in no way do i have any thing against you. I think you're a cool guy, but a little ambitious. But who says that's a bad thing with mkIII owners?! :biglaugh:
 

tekdeus

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Understandable! BTW, have we met at one of the meets JoeC? I am truthful about helping out the community. For a short time I'm actually selling to the local Vancouver guys at my wholesale cost, straight up. I'm selling Dan a one-car pack at cost to preserve his new ride (400+ HP GReddy Frankentsein monster). I gave Don (AKA VanSupra AKA Chickenwing) a bottle of gear product for free to help quiet down his noisy differential pinion bearing. If I have to take the time to package product and drive to the post office, I'd like to make at least $10!

One of the biggest reasons for my ambition here is that I am just totally personally convinced that this product would prevent rod knock. If rod knock is, 99% of the time, an oiling problem causing metal-to-metal contact between the crankshaft and the connecting rod bearing, then it seems obvious to me that if the metal simply could not make that contact, then an engine rebuild would be spared.

The same goes for the oil-starved R154 thrust washer. Plus this could avoid crankwalk for heavy-clutch users that start their engines with the clutch depressed: this is murder on the oil-starved crankshaft thrust washers on startup.

If I wasn't a distributor, I surely wouldn't have gone to the lengths I have to prove the product kicks ass on everything else out there.

I'd suggest phoning instead of email if you want info faster. The guys at head office are cool, and you can call them at 1 (866) 824-8878 or Local Phone: (604) 244 8999

Cheers - Brad

JoeC said:
tekdeus, I think more people would find you to be a more believable retailer if you were straight forward with us. As if you weren't trying to promote a product YOU sell, but a product you find good, and that could help us out.

(aka) I noticed in your last post the first half with the videos, which have been posted before in this thread, aswell as the link in your comment have them.. seems to just be the retailer inside you trying to make money off of us.

Though, the second half of your post is what i personally find attractive to me. You stated your opinion and backed it up with several examples of why fuel products work the way they do, in certain applications. I'm not sure about every one else, but that made me feel fuzzy inside. Like reading IJ's build thread and learning something new.

I'm just hoping that you are here to help the community as a whole, and not have the community help you. If you could talk with the head guys about the tests that would be fantastic, hopefully I receive an email from them sometime within a day or two with something that I can shoot back to you guys. I hope it isn't something we already have seen. By the way tekdeus, in no way do i have any thing against you. I think you're a cool guy, but a little ambitious. But who says that's a bad thing with mkIII owners?! :biglaugh:
 
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tekdeus

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By the way, one of the best ways to test this product is to use it in a differential with noisy, worn out roller bearings (i.e. pinion or carrier). This is characterstic of a steady droning vibration or howling noise that can get quite loud on the highway, plus there will be lots of metal shavings stuck to the drain plug magnet. This is different from the sound of improperly adjusted gear backlash which causes the meshing-gear-type noise/whine.

Either add the product directly or with fresh gear lube and I guarantee the noise will quiet down to near-new levels after a few hundred miles. It's pretty darn incredible, it happened to my Mk2 Supra. People love avoiding expensive rebuilds. Here's some videos I shot of other people who had similar results:
mms://stream.yourgalaxy.com/bitron/Hi_product/Hi_JeffBandickFordTCase.wmv
mms://stream.yourgalaxy.com/bitron/Hi_product/Hi_LindaHCadillacDeville.wmv

Anyone got this problem with their diff?
 

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im with yellow, i've got a few cars i can test this stuff on. i could take a few cans and ill slip some in moms protege. hell, i might even be able to try it in the power wagon.
 

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and what the hell?

a set of zebras has lasted me two years. no such thing as too expensive.
 

Figit090

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hmm...that movie is interesting. the one about the metal to metal contact. the only thing that first came to mind is a slightly contradictory statement...

if the bi-tron is added and does such an immaculate job of mollecular adhesion to the metal, how could the microscopic mountains be rounded down AFTER the additive is in the machine?

maybe it just prevents large divots from forming again?

it does sound feasible. i wish i had more physics background so i could understand the properties of these things on such a small level.

can anyone tell me exactly what is IN bi-tron? if not the proportions thats fine but at least some the oils/substances used? thanks.

i'm definitely interested in a well-documented test and i think that is a HUGE point in allowing people to understand it really works. even better if a fellow SM user other than the seller could test it on a not-so-crucial vehicle...maybe even one that is burning oil or on its way out.

i have a friend with an S-10 that burns oil and just began to die...maybe i could get him to try the stuff.... it makes a cloud of smoke on starts. lol
 

tekdeus

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The microscopic peaks and valleys smooth out under load/pressure, since they slide over each other without friction. Otherwise, if the metal does make contact, it just rips up/grinds/roughens up the metal even more.

It is not like the product called "Restore" which supposedly adds metal or moly to fill in rough surfaces (not even sure if that stuff works). So it won't replace worn metal, but it will prevent further wear and smooth out microscopic roughness gradually over time.

In some instances, it can help stuck rings get loose again which can restore compression. Because of this, it may or may not help oil burning issues in highly worn engines. My Mk2 has a lot of mileage and burned a bit of oil when I bought it. It hasn't gotten any worse since I started using the Bi-Tron, so I'm happy that it's keeping it preserved where it's at.

There are so many factors that affect results, I just tell people to be happy that they've eliminated start-up wear and a lot of extra further wear that would have happened otherwise. Many customers do report power and mileage increases, but not everyone does, so I don't promise these aspects but if they do happen it's a nice bonus for the user.

Not sure of the details of how they make this stuff but apparently it is 100% petroleum. Modifed oil molecules. "Bi" stands for 2 and "Tron" stands for electrons. If I recall correctly it is a petroleum molecule that is missing 2 electrons giving it a positive charge and a strong affinity to metal so it is essentially "borrowing" electrons from the metal, forming a very strong bond, that gets even stronger the hotter it gets.

If you want more details, here is a 38 minute interview with one of the leading R&D chemists contracted by Bi-Tron, who served on the SAE and also participated in the development of Techron, offered by Chevron: http://www.echowavepro.com/m3u/product32.m3u

Figit090 said:
hmm...that movie is interesting. the one about the metal to metal contact. the only thing that first came to mind is a slightly contradictory statement...

if the bi-tron is added and does such an immaculate job of mollecular adhesion to the metal, how could the microscopic mountains be rounded down AFTER the additive is in the machine?

maybe it just prevents large divots from forming again?

it does sound feasible. i wish i had more physics background so i could understand the properties of these things on such a small level.

can anyone tell me exactly what is IN bi-tron? if not the proportions thats fine but at least some the oils/substances used? thanks.

i'm definitely interested in a well-documented test and i think that is a HUGE point in allowing people to understand it really works. even better if a fellow SM user other than the seller could test it on a not-so-crucial vehicle...maybe even one that is burning oil or on its way out.

i have a friend with an S-10 that burns oil and just began to die...maybe i could get him to try the stuff.... it makes a cloud of smoke on starts. lol
 
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shaeff

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for those who keep saying stuff about changing your oil every 1500-2000 miles, as well as "i need 20/50 because it's hot here" need to search for some posts about oil made by jetjock.

and remember.
Nick M. said:
pressure is resistance to flow.
-shaeff
 

mkIIIman089

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shaeff said:
for those who keep saying stuff about changing your oil every 1500-2000 miles, as well as "i need 20/50 because it's hot here" need to search for some posts about oil made by jetjock.

and remember.
Nick M. said:
pressure is resistance to flow.
-shaeff
:icon_bigg Knowledge!
 

drjonez

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mkIIIman089 said:
:icon_bigg Knowledge!
= power. people would be surprised what a bit of knowledge would do for them....and knowledge doesn't come from just reading something on the intarweeb...
 

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i guess the only way i would be satified , with purchasing this product would be if the company, pulled 4 motor's out of running cars, perfebly the same make and modle,


doing this would give 4 identical oiling systems

note millage,

take two of the engines, and perform a rebuild,


all new bearings, hone, new rings, and note, take pictures of all the bearings that came out of the motor, along with how the cams look, i would also say get these 2 blocks hot tanked, to get rid of any sludge build up.

on the other 2 motors, they should have similar millage to the motors being rebuilt, drain all oil, remove pan, and allow to drip for a few days. put pans back on, and choose your oil wisely,

from what im reading bi-tron is just an additive, so i would put the same oil into both motors and ad bi-tron into one of them, run the engines on stands for the length of a month , constant running, of course plumbed with water to allow cooling,

better yet re-install the engines into vehicals, and allow your daughters to drive the vehicals for a month,

for the rebuilt engines, do the same thing except run the bi-tron from the get go, break in and every thing.

maybe a month isn't long enough to tell weather enough wear has happened, so maybe 2 months of daily driving, try atleast to put 2-5000 miles on the motors,

pull all engines and tear down , note bearings in all the motors, and how much metal is in the oil, oil color, and test for other chemicals in the oil.


ps, oil changes color from the blow by in motors, where the compression blows past the rings, and the carbon monoxide and acids from the combustion process change the oil charaterics.

also the chemicals in blow by attrac water to be absorbed into the oil.

well i got to run, sorta got side tracked while typin,


but any how, thats the style of test that i would be happy with
 

Figit090

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thanks for that explination, it helps. i'm definitely going to look more into this.

pimptrizkit - sounds expensive. lol.

i dont remember if you said this but measurements should be made as well...very precise onces with a good, precise caliper.
 

Figit090

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oh...well then. lol. i wasnt necisarily thinking only they would do the test though. it would be less apt to gain suspicion if a 3rd party did it anyway....
 

jimi87-t

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What state is this Birtron in, in < 32* F temps and then what state is it in, in > 200* F temps. I've seen some of these additives turn into a an ice cube when put in a freezer over night (this is bad mmmK). There are extreme conditions that oil HAS to hold up to, the test in the vids is nice, but far from an accurate depiction of what oil and any additive are put through in the almost violent changing conditions the oil deals with in the real world.

Not knocking the product, but the vids do not make me a "believer". I would buy cases of this if proven.

BTW: I'm an aircraft inspector, deal mainly with aircraft engine and gear box bearings for the military and commercial aircraft. A few of the bearings I handle cost more than $25,000.00 (thats for one single USED bearing). I'm wondering why the aircraft industry is not using this.......it would save billions a year......if it works.