Urgent lubrication question

josbeat

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hi!
ok I have the dry sump sytem working with crank scraper and Pauter rods
how is the pistons lubricated and cylinder walls?
the pauter rods dont have the oil hole on the side , the scraper clean the crankshaft of oil and the oil jets only work at certain oil pressure so .... how ????
 

Nick M

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If you have a GE, you don't have the pistons to squirt oil on the underside. If the Pauter rod does not have holes in it, then you will not have any lubrication besides the crank splash. Something to think about...I know, too late now.
 

josbeat

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is the GTE so yes it have oil squirters but if I remember well they only spray under certain oil pressure.
on the scraper site they say that the crank send a lot of oil from the bearings to the walls but our supras also have a hole on the rods to send oil to the pistons if the Pauter rods dont have that hole ..... will be sufficient lubrication with the oil hows coming out from the crank bearings?? soon will we know
at the moment sound´s good
other way will be setting the minimum oil pressure to keep the squirters spraying all the time, with the dry sump system its possible but only if is necessary.

good to have opinions please.
 

josbeat

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at the moment I got 2 Kg oil pressure at idle when cold and 3 kg when is hot which is rare , idling a 1000 rev with 10w60 Castrol oil
 

Nick M

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the scraper site they say that the crank send a lot of oil from the bearings to the walls but our supras also have a hole on the rods to send oil to the pistons
All production engines pump oil through the crankshaft to the journals. And there is a hole and passage in the rod to squirt oil on the cylinder wall. Not the piston. This is why pistons have oil control rings. To wipe away the excess and minimize oil burning through the four stroke process. All normal running engines burn oil, despite people saying their dipstick shows full and they don't burn oil. The squirters are there because the rod does not shoot oil straight up.

if the Pauter rods dont have that hole
Then there will be a lot of friction on the cylinder walls, increasing wear and reducing power. I don't have those rods. Maybe IJ has a picture in his archive thread. It seems odd to me that they would not have the channel for lubrication.

The squirters do need certain pressure to over come the spring that holds it shut.
 

IJ.

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Should have had slots machined into the flanks of the Big end of the rods to spray onto the cylinder walls on the thrust side of the block.
 

Dan_Gyoba

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is the GTE
Am I the only one who finds it odd that this was posted in the GE section then?

So far as I know, the crank should never be splashing in the oil, splash comes from the oil which is forced out the sides of the piston wrist pins and crank journals from the oil pressure of the pump. A scraper may reduce this somewhat from the journals, but not from the wrist pins at all.

Anyway, if this has the squirters, then it should be okay.
 

josbeat

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Should have had slots machined into the flanks of the Big end of the rods to spray onto the cylinder walls on the thrust side of the block.

yes it shoudl but I dont remember to see anything
aslo I tried to see if they have possition marks or any instalation instructions but nopp nothing
at the moment still runnign well , i have checked the camshaft journals and still perfect
 

josbeat

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Group 4 or 5 synthetic? 60 grade needs a lot of heat to flow properly.
maybe there it have that information bur here in Europa i cant see any information about the grade
it only say 10w60 Castrol Edge especial for BMW M series Engines

My supra is for racing purpose and it is the best oil I used with it with forged piston ectr.
 

Nick M

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10w60 is a grading system developed by the Society of Automotive Engineers to help complicate owners thoughts on oil, because C and S for diesel and gas from the API wasn't confusing enough. C and S do have a legitimate reason, but unless you have read it, you might not get it.

So 10W is a grade.
 

jdmfreak

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Whats the point in running such a thick oil?? Some people swear by 20w50 while others swear by 0w30 I run 5w20 and you're running 10w60
 

josbeat

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10w60 is a grading system developed by the Society of Automotive Engineers to help complicate owners thoughts on oil, because C and S for diesel and gas from the API wasn't confusing enough. C and S do have a legitimate reason, but unless you have read it, you might not get it.

So 10W is a grade.
sorry I want to say Group about the question of which is the group four or five.
 

josbeat

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Whats the point in running such a thick oil?? Some people swear by 20w50 while others swear by 0w30 I run 5w20 and you're running 10w60
here it is very popular for racing cars and it is made special for large engine claerances with forged pistons
it is very good to lower the oil consumption on a racing engines
but the best is because the oil film is very resistance at high temperatures
it have a lot of good chemicals aditives

I have a lot of storys with that oil and all are good, I dont understand the surprise to use Castrol 10w60 , is the best and recomended for supras , it cure oil pressure problems and oil consumptions

for example is you have a BMW M3 or M5 is the only oil you can put it in because if not you will need to put more oil into the engie than fuel in the tank every 60 Miles

anyway everyone have his preferences and only the experience tells the truth.
 

Bmettie

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Am I the only one who finds it odd that this was posted in the GE section then?

So far as I know, the crank should never be splashing in the oil, splash comes from the oil which is forced out the sides of the piston wrist pins and crank journals from the oil pressure of the pump. A scraper may reduce this somewhat from the journals, but not from the wrist pins at all.

Anyway, if this has the squirters, then it should be okay.
OEM Pistons do not have pump feed wrist pins, wrist pin lubrication comes from the oil control rings on the piston, which pushes oil onto the pin next to the locks. Also from the oil squirters, the underside of a OEM cast piston has hashmarks for the oil to collect on(with the squirter open, and as the piston comes down the bore) then drip down a hole on the very top of the rod feeding the wrist pin. The squirter is also for piston cooling on turbo cars. I'm curious how much oil is "spraying" out of the big end of the rod pins on the crank, and is it enough to soak the cylinder walls when piston is all the way up. Basically are the squirters needed on a forged bottom end with no rod sprayers?
 

IJ.

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yes it shoudl but I dont remember to see anything
aslo I tried to see if they have possition marks or any instalation instructions but nopp nothing
at the moment still runnign well , i have checked the camshaft journals and still perfect
With a scraper unless you have 40+ Psi Hot idle pressure you're running the risk of increased Piston/ring/pin wear...
 

Poodles

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at the moment I got 2 Kg oil pressure at idle when cold and 3 kg when is hot which is rare , idling a 1000 rev with 10w60 Castrol oil
It's just about impossible for the pressure to go UP with a hot idle...

Also, I get into these arguments all the time at work about heavier oils being "better." For starters, there's pressure relief valves in the oil pump...
 

Nick M

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sorry I want to say Group about the question of which is the group four or five.
Group 4 and 5 are not made from crude oil base stock. Most are made from hydrocracking the crude oil. Most being Mobil 1, Castrol, Penzoil... they all work really well, but not as well as a group 4 or 5.
 

josbeat

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It's just about impossible for the pressure to go UP with a hot idle...

Also, I get into these arguments all the time at work about heavier oils being "better." For starters, there's pressure relief valves in the oil pump...
the idle when cold wasnt smoth than when hot with the new 272 camshaft so may be that was the mistake also everything was new included the oil pump .
now with better idling speed and after a little breaking in all is normal , but is truth taht the presure is practical indentical when cold and when hot but this is one of the avantages of the Castrol 10w60.
 

josbeat

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With a scraper unless you have 40+ Psi Hot idle pressure you're running the risk of increased Piston/ring/pin wear...
I can rise up the pump speed and adjust the maximum pressure is another good think of the dry sump system


thanks for all helps.
 

FredMk3

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With a scraper unless you have 40+ Psi Hot idle pressure you're running the risk of increased Piston/ring/pin wear...
So IJ, do you advise not running a crank scraper on a 7M?
I got one on my engine for like 5 years, I'm tearing my engine right now, will remove it its preferable.
 

IJ.

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I can rise up the pump speed and adjust the maximum pressure is another good think of the dry sump system


thanks for all helps.
Welcome!

So IJ, do you advise not running a crank scraper on a 7M?
I got one on my engine for like 5 years, I'm tearing my engine right now, will remove it its preferable.
It's fine if you can make 40Psi on a hot idle Fred so the Squirters are open all the time, some after market rods don't have the beam holes, for a road car that spends a bit of time at low RPM or idling it needs some splash, but if you're running stock rods the spray holes in the beams lube the bores so it should be fine.
 

josbeat

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today I been working on it and I found like it still making more pressure when is hot than cold
and that could be by the oil feed pipe diametre, AN-12 when it is recomended to be AN-16 when is more than 5 feets longer
or the oil feed pipe routing is no the ideal because it goes up just on the exit of the oil tank (easy solution)
and or like some of your said the 10w60 is to heavy when cold
I always asking me way on the Nascar they are using oil heater on the oil tank ? the answer maybe is that , to get a good fluidity for the firt start , the Nascar cars also have the oil tank at the back of the car like mine so....
 

josbeat

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now its to late
two cylinders are damaged , two cylinders have 30 psi les than the rest the 3º and 4º
I will try to see what was the problem so I will use it to get the system working propelly and then repair the damaged next year.
really the problem is the little time I have to have it ready before the last race of the year because inside me somehing are telling me that the engine its not right , thats way the reason of this Thread
I will send an email to Pauter to ask way his Beatifull rods don`t have any oil hole or grains to send oil to the pistons.
 

josbeat

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I need to drill the oil squiters to let them free
and anothe oil tank with AN-16 in and out conections
with a little more speed on the pump it will be fine.
will keep updated

regards
 

Dan_Gyoba

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Don't drill the oil squirters unless you don't want oil pressure in the rest of the engine. The oil squirters are pretty close to the start of the oiling system, so if they don't hold pressure, you won't get any to the rest of the engine.

Edit: As per thie diagram here:
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=LU&P=2

The "check valve" there is the banjo bolts spring. Drilling that out will reduce available presure to the crank and cylinder head (and turbocharger.)
 

Nick M

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You are also using oil that needs far more heat to flow than you might be generating.
 

josbeat

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Don't drill the oil squirters unless you don't want oil pressure in the rest of the engine. The oil squirters are pretty close to the start of the oiling system, so if they don't hold pressure, you won't get any to the rest of the engine.

Edit: As per thie diagram here:
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=LU&P=2

The "check valve" there is the banjo bolts spring. Drilling that out will reduce available presure to the crank and cylinder head (and turbocharger.)
can we talk about it?
yes I know and thats way I will change the pump pulley to get more pressure.
on that diagram we can see the lubrication of the pistons are by conrods or the squirters so now dont have the conrods oiling ... the only way is the squirters .
will not be a big diference no? no hole on the conrods , hole in the jets, one for other
 

josbeat

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You are also using oil that needs far more heat to flow than you might be generating.
I replace it for Shell 5W30
and the feed pipe will be bigger. (thats was the problem)
 

adampecush

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You are also using oil that needs far more heat to flow than you might be generating.
I think this engine might develop enough heat...oil temp on my M3 maxes out at 270F on track (S65 V8). The 7M will likely run considerably hotter.

FWIW, the 10W60 TWS shears to 40 wt. and then stabilizes relatively quickly after entering the engine. I was actually consuming .5 quart per track day in my M3. Switched to a blend of Redline 10W60 and 5W40 (to match kinematic viscosity of the castrol) and the consumption stopped.

As far as the feed pipe is concerned, do a hydraulics calculation on how much pressure you actually lose with the OEM piece vs ARZ or equivalent. You'll likely find that it isn't much.
 

Nick M

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If he is using synthetic, then the grade will not be as crucial. BMW specifies something like 50 if I remember. And it is grade, not weight. Gravity has nothing to do with it.
 

adampecush

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40 wt. as in SAE grade (i.e. 5W40). BMW specifies Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W60 for M cars, the same stuff that josbeat is using.
 

Nick M

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BMW specifies...
For the record, I couldn't give a shit. Using oil that needs a tremendous amount of heat to flow (viscosity changes with temperature) sped up the demise of his engine. Not squirting the cylinder walls is secondary.
 

NashMan

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intresting dry sump limted wall lube at low rpm


only thing I can see I kinda skimmed thread

1. notch rods mosty likly all ready side

2. re jet your oil squirtes and remove check ball and spring (most liky have to get some pretty good with a tig welder thou) honda's do this they have no check all or nothing

toyota's race team didn't even run the oil squirters and just used jetting from the base of the rod


on my old motor wet sump

I rand a crank scarper teflon very high clearance thou , eagle rods with no oil jetting and I removed the oil squriters

after the tear down my motor had plenty of oil main reason there still was splash lubrication just limted and there is rod bearing bled out it just not controlled well

so you do have oil going on to you walls since the crank will still throw it up there just not controlled

when I pulled my motor apart my ring's were good and so were my wrist pins so were the upper rod baring sleavs (stock machine marks) there's oil on dem walls

granted this motor's ring's and wrist pins were were out faster but that's what ya do when ya wana shave some oil off the under side of you piston and keep you crank oil tornado free to gain just that extra power
 

Dan_Gyoba

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can we talk about it?
yes I know and thats way I will change the pump pulley to get more pressure.
on that diagram we can see the lubrication of the pistons are by conrods or the squirters so now dont have the conrods oiling ... the only way is the squirters .
will not be a big diference no? no hole on the conrods , hole in the jets, one for other
It's a matter of where in the chain the holes are.

The squirters get pressure early in the chain, so a pressure release there reduces available pressure to the main bearings, rod bearings, cylinder head, and turbocharger. The slots in the rods get pressure AFTER the crank, and rods, so a release there has a much lesser effect on the cylinder head and turbocharger oil pressure, and no effect at all on the pressure to the crank and bearings.
 

josbeat

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It's a matter of where in the chain the holes are.

The squirters get pressure early in the chain, so a pressure release there reduces available pressure to the main bearings, rod bearings, cylinder head, and turbocharger. The slots in the rods get pressure AFTER the crank, and rods, so a release there has a much lesser effect on the cylinder head and turbocharger oil pressure, and no effect at all on the pressure to the crank and bearings.
yes I agree with you but on the other side the most critical when cranking is the pistons and cylinder walls so if the first place to get oil is the pistons and cylinder walls will not be bad , and then the rest .... sincerelly I think it will be the best because plenty of oil kept inside the crank and bearings and inside camshaft journals but not on the cylinder walls so....
one good thing with the dry sump is that I can put two bolt to hold the pan and test and then if its right seal it again if not remove two bolts and change the squirters again .
the bad thing is the amount of silicone with the crank scraper we need to remove , a lot jejeje

anyway this engine need to be repaired again so we can use it like a test unit, but making the pump turning faster I can get the amount of oil required like Ij say but it will reduce some power, the best if to get the correct oil pressure needed to run the engine safe but not wasting more HP of the necesary.

tomorrow I will report the results, the test will be to replace the squirters by other drilled (not completelly free hole) with the same configuration in the pump and check what is the oil pressure variation.
 

josbeat

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sorry my friends forget my last post.
I will not change the squirters.
I will wait for the new set of pulleys to rise up the pump speed but not before I had replaced the oil tank for other with better deaeration and with bigger conextions.
looking the tank feed hole I have now (5/8 BSP) is to small so I am pretty sure that the problem is the cavitation.

will keep this thread updated
 

josbeat

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after new oil tank with bigger holes (AN-16) new oil lines (AN-16) and new pulleys (20-40 before 21-38 now) I got exactly the same presure and that is not the most extrange.... cold and hot is exactly the same oil pressure also adjusting in the relief pressure bolt two turn inside still same!.
idling- 35 psi , 3000 rpm- 45 psi and a plenty of vaccum thanks that I have a vac regulator.

i dont know... maybe the press sensor is bad ¿!?