Suspension hardware questions

loc182

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I am planning to swap out my original stock springs for the Eibach Pro Kit and I have some questions that I couldn't find good answers for in existing threads.
(Sorry for yet another suspension thread!)

Is there a good aftermarket replacement for the front spring isolator/insulator?​
Toyota 48157-14020 has been discontinued and I didn't see anything on Rock Auto.​
Is it recommended to cut the bump stops with these springs?​
There is not much material on the stock bump stops as it is, so it seems unwise.​
Is it recommended to replace the front shock mount uppers when changing springs?​
When I take the car in for an alignment post upgrade is there anything I should tell the shop, or will they know what to do?​
Thanks as always for the all the support!
 
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Piratetip

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I also currently have Eibachs and replaced everything.
A good product for spring isolators I found:
Tein Seilencer
PN: TEISPR02-H2186
PN: TEISPR02-G1497

One is 60-90mm other is 90-130mm.

Get 3x sets of the 90-130mm and one set of 60-90mm.
I placed the isolators at the base of the spring where it contacts the perch. Also placed an isolators between the coils where it transitions between linear and progressive spring rates.
So 2x isolators per spring.

A good place to pick them up for is rallysport direct, good prices.

KYB SB101 works good for new bumpstops for both front and rear.
I cut off about 1/2" to 1" off the bump stop to account for the lowering.

Check the condition of the top mounts. You might be able to reuse them.

Photo when I did mine.
 
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loc182

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Thanks for the tip Piratetip! Your picture made me realize I had the front and rear mounts confused when I was looking at parts. Do you happen to have a pic of your front shocks too?

I really like the look of the isolators you recommended, I have placed my order!
 
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loc182

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So you used one set of the TEISPR02-G149 replace the front spring isolator/insulator then?

I remember that mine definitely looked like the old one in this image so that is why I was worried when I couldn't find new ones.
 
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Piratetip

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Oh the top perch rubber, I have newer mounts so didn't need to replace it.
The isolators I listed were just for the bottom spring perch and between the coils. 8x in total.

I don't know a source ATM to get a new rubber isolator for the top mounts.
I will check though.

That PN in the image is discontinued, so would need to find another suitable one.
 

loc182

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Yeah, so far my searches have not found me anything. Maybe YotaMD has an idea since he noted AM options are available.
 

Piratetip

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Yep, ask.
I am also curious the source for an aftermarket part.
 

Piratetip

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If you search Moog coil spring insulator, they make a ton of different styles for different vehicles.
The trouble is they don't list dimensions...
Would be pretty easy to match up a similar one if they did.
You have to know if a 1990 Volvo or whatever had the same size as the Supra by chance or really good memory.

Maybe someone has a friend at an auto parts store that would let them rummage around through boxes to find a suitable size.

I always wish auto parts makers would actually list dimensions for parts in a catalog for stuff like this.

The other option is to move to a style made by prothane or energy suspension.
Usually going to be harder urethane, but at least they list dimensions.
 

loc182

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Thanks for all the great tips. I was looking on the Energy Suspension site wondering if anything might work.

Sadly YotaMD didn't know of any part numbers, so the hunt will continue!

I took some measurements today and it looks like I need something in this size:
inner Diameter: 3 in
Outer Diameter of lip: 3 1/2 in
Outer Diameter of part: 5 1/4 in
Pad Thickness: 3/8 in
Lip Height: 1/2 in
Total Height: 7/8 in

The heights are estimates from measuring a mount and using Photoshop to calculate the thickness and lip height. If anyone has more accurate data that would be wonderful. (Edit: Updated inner diameter to 3 inches.)

While my data may not be perfect, it looks like Energy Suspension 9.6107 will fit the bill. Ordered a set, fingers crossed!
 
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Piratetip

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It's probably going to be close enough.
You will see when you try!
 

loc182

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So the aforementioned 9.6107 was a bit larger than the center of the mount, but this is similar to how the OEM part appears to be based on the images at YotaMD. The inner lip was then ever so slightly too large for the spring, but I could force the spring into place with some pressure.

I am no expert here, but I felt like the quarter inch of play was a concern because the poly was so slippery. This led me to look for something a bit smaller and so I ordered the Energy Suspension 9.6104.

This part is closer in design to the OEM with only an inner lip, but it is a bit smaller. That said, it does stretch to fit on the mount and is just wide enough for the spring. See the images:

Isolator 002.jpg Isolator 001.jpg

Sorry it is hard to see, I wish I could have gotten the red model for clarity. I did use a bit of Photoshop to try and brighten things without blowing out colors.

While not pictured, the inner lip is about a half inch smaller than the inside of the spring.

In Summary:

9.6107
Pros: Holds spring in place on isolator, appears to be same thickness as OEM
Cons: Isolator can slip about 1/4 inch on the mount, inner lip is just a bit too big and requires force to seat spring

9.6104 (Pictured above)
Pros: Sits tight on mount, thickness appears just a bit more than OEM
Cons: Spring can slip about 1/2 inch on poly, poly must stretch a bit to sit flush with shock mount

What do you guys think? I can add pics of 9.6107 if you like.
 
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suprarx7nut

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OK, I dug through some photos. Here's some clear pics of the isolator/insulator. Not sure if it helps or if it's just a tease since you can't buy them anymore, haha. In reality it's really just a low durometer disc of rubber/foam. My old OEM one was essentially completely compressed and worn through. I think either of your options would be fine as long as they keep the spring off the mount.

1565068740984.png

Here you can see the rear mounts with the built in insulator compared to the separate parts of the front mount and isolator.
1565068788263.png
1565068845472.png
 
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loc182

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Haha, yeah, I have been looking at those pics a lot over the past couple of weeks. Save for the middle one, I think that is new and it is awesome to see the back of the real isolator!

This makes me think I should use the larger piece and just drill out small voids for the backs of the bolts to rest. This will make it so that it will stay in position.
 

loc182

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I was gathering up my returns and discovered something interesting...

If I take both of the poly isolators I bought and put them together then the spring is held in place perfectly on the mount with no play. Here is an image:
Sandwich.jpg

I have not cut out voids for the mounting bolts on the lower isolator yet, so it is sitting a bit high in the picture.

Using both isolators appears to have two advantages:
  • The spring is held in place on the center of the shock mount
  • The spring is raised an additional 3/8 of an inch from the surface of the shock mount.

I like the second advantage because it almost completely cuts out the extra half inch of lowering that the front Eibach springs have. But I don't know if it is safe to have the spring sit higher like this?

Any feedback would be appreciated!
 

suprarx7nut

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I don't like the idea of additional compliance in that spring interface - certainly not if it's enough to impact ride height. I think you want as little as possible without metal on metal contact.

I'd say chose one and go with it.
 

alcyon

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Are those illuminas TEMS ? are those upper mounts from KYB ?

I also currently have Eibachs and replaced everything.
A good product for spring isolators I found:
Tein Seilencer
PN: TEISPR02-H2186
PN: TEISPR02-G1497

One is 60-90mm other is 90-130mm.

Get 3x sets of the 90-130mm and one set of 60-90mm.
I placed the isolators at the base of the spring where it contacts the perch. Also placed an isolators between the coils where it transitions between linear and progressive spring rates.
So 2x isolators per spring.

A good place to pick them up for is rallysport direct, good prices.

KYB SB101 works good for new bumpstops for both front and rear.
I cut off about 1/2" to 1" off the bump stop to account for the lowering.

Check the condition of the top mounts. You might be able to reuse them.

Photo when I did mine.
 
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loc182

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I cannot comment on the upper mounts, but those are definitely the TEMS compatible Tokiko Illumina II's in Piratetip's picture.
 

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I used MasterPro FM1650 from O'Reillys on my 92. $6 for pair, Just slightly thinner at 1/2" then the one new OEM I had but diameter was perfect match and it had a raised lip to fit into top spring coil
 
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loc182

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So I put the Eibach springs on my Illumina IIs last weekend and as I began work on the rears I noticed something disturbing about the KYB SM5159 upper mounts:
TroublePara.jpg

The flat section in the piston hole is rotated 90 degrees relative to the actuator mount on the new part. While one could adjust the dial in the piston to allow the actuator to actually fit, with the dial at that setting the damping force is actually at its weakest.

So I don't know what the best option is for TEMS cars now. Is it possible to use tools to rotate the flat part of the piston hole, or the TEMS mount? I couldn't do it by hand.

Shame these are not like fronts, where the TEMS mount will always be in the correct spot.
 
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alcyon

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So I put the Eibach springs my Illumina IIs last weekend and as I began work on the rears I noticed something disturbing about the KYB SM5159 upper mounts:
View attachment 82340

The flat section in the piston hole is rotated 90 degrees relative to the actuator mount on the new part. While one could adjust the dial in the piston to allow the actuator to actually fit, with the dial at that setting the damping force is actually at its weakest.

So I don't know what the best option is for TEMS cars now. Is it possible to use tools to rotate the flat part of the piston hole, or the TEMS mount? I couldn't do it by hand.

Shame these are not like fronts, where the TEMS mount will always be in the correct spot.
Thanks for the info. I read somewhere that some people said that the KYB upper mounts for the mk3 are of low quality and will sag quickly. Is this true ?
 

Piratetip

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Interesting on the actuator orientation.
I will check mine to see if they are the same way or not.
 

loc182

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Thanks for the info. I read somewhere that some people said that the KYB upper mounts for the mk3 are of low quality and will sag quickly. Is this true ?
Quality wise they seemed about the same, but this is just from a largely visual inspection.

The box for the new KYB mounts did say they were made in India, not that that means anything. I am guessing the originals were made in Japan.
 
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alcyon

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I also currently have Eibachs and replaced everything.
A good product for spring isolators I found:
Tein Seilencer
PN: TEISPR02-H2186
PN: TEISPR02-G1497

One is 60-90mm other is 90-130mm.

Get 3x sets of the 90-130mm and one set of 60-90mm.
I placed the isolators at the base of the spring where it contacts the perch. Also placed an isolators between the coils where it transitions between linear and progressive spring rates.
So 2x isolators per spring.

A good place to pick them up for is rallysport direct, good prices.

KYB SB101 works good for new bumpstops for both front and rear.
I cut off about 1/2" to 1" off the bump stop to account for the lowering.

Check the condition of the top mounts. You might be able to reuse them.

Photo when I did mine.
Do these
Tein Seilencer
PN: TEISPR02-H2186
PN: TEISPR02-G1497

work on the stock springs ?
 

Piratetip

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Yeah they should work fine on stock springs as well.
 

alcyon

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Sorry to ask more noob questions
I had a look at the used parts I pulled of from a front cut JDM Z20 Soarer, and saw a few things that kinda confused me.
1st pic shows the shock assembly . This is OEM spring, it doesn't seem to have a progressive coil in the middle, so I assume I won't need the TEISPR02-G1497 90-130mm insulators in this middle area ?

Next in 2nd pic, right at the very top of the spring where it sits on the coil spring isolator, there is some rust. It looks like the very last bit of the spring rubbed against the coil at the bottom. Is this anything to worry about ? I am very concerned about eliminating every bit of creak. My car now has a slight faint creak every time i drive one side of the car over an elevation and the other wheel stays on flat ground. I have a feeling it is this area of the spring rubbing against each other. What can be done on this area?
 

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Piratetip

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1. Yes stock springs are linear not progressive.

2. Does not look like rubbing metal on metal. Just looks like the rubber has a slight split and some moisture took some rust down.
 
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alcyon

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Thanks for all the great tips. I was looking on the Energy Suspension site wondering if anything might work.

Sadly YotaMD didn't know of any part numbers, so the hunt will continue!

I took some measurements today and it looks like I need something in this size:
inner Diameter: 3 in
Outer Diameter of lip: 3 1/2 in
Outer Diameter of part: 5 1/4 in
Pad Thickness: 3/8 in
Lip Height: 1/2 in
Total Height: 7/8 in

The heights are estimates from measuring a mount and using Photoshop to calculate the thickness and lip height. If anyone has more accurate data that would be wonderful. (Edit: Updated inner diameter to 3 inches.)

While my data may not be perfect, it looks like Energy Suspension 9.6107 will fit the bill. Ordered a set, fingers crossed!
I did a drawing for this as loc182 measured, it would help in visualising the shape and measurements at one go. Dimensions are dual, inches and mm. This is the OEM Spring locator for the front.
1572525355283.png

Now according to Supramikect, he used Masterpro FM1650 Which is 1/2" only in total thickness including the lip. Assuming the lip and the flat part is evenly spaced, so the thickness should be 1/4" (6.35mm) which leads us to...


If I were to use this FM1650 as an insulator, I would need to another layer to match the OEM thickness, and I choose a material called Lina H40 which is reddish and not too hard yet not too soft. I will get this made with 4mm thickness. The purpose of this piece to is to take the stresses off the FM1650 which will be pressing hard against those 3 stud bolt heads on the SM 5160 mount. It will basically even out the stress on FM1650 all around this new piece.
1572527812010.png
1572527856142.png
So the thickness of where the spring will sit on now excluding the lip is 6.35mm + 4mm = 10.35mm, just a fraction more of the OEM one at 9.525mm.
I will be getting two of these red upper isolators made up once I receive the FM1650, to confirm the flat area thickness.
 
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Piratetip

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Nice!
Where are you having those made?
 

alcyon

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So I put the Eibach springs on my Illumina IIs last weekend and as I began work on the rears I noticed something disturbing about the KYB SM5159 upper mounts:
View attachment 82340

The flat section in the piston hole is rotated 90 degrees relative to the actuator mount on the new part. While one could adjust the dial in the piston to allow the actuator to actually fit, with the dial at that setting the damping force is actually at its weakest.

So I don't know what the best option is for TEMS cars now. Is it possible to use tools to rotate the flat part of the piston hole, or the TEMS mount? I couldn't do it by hand.

Shame these are not like fronts, where the TEMS mount will always be in the correct spot.
Pertaining to this issue loc182 brought up, lets talk about REARS 1st. I received my new mounts from rock auto today. While the rubber on the mounts are soft and pliable, unfortunately it seems that these new mounts have no standard at all in regards to where the D flat is. one is like this,
1572961310075.png
another :
1572961369052.png
From what I heard as per what loc 182 said, the TEMS shaft in relation to the shock bushing on the bottom, is fixed in alignment. So the D slot must be oriented exactly same as the originals. I have a solution for this. I will get a machinist to drill out the D flat, make it round hole all through. Then i will lasercut a 1mm plate like this.
1572961652716.png
I will then put in the old shock, with this plate, either at top or bottom, align it correctly, tight the nut good, then gently arc weld this plate in position, and quickly cool it off. Problem solved.

Now for the FRONTS. Notice in relation to the outer most nut which is the reference point, the right side one seems to be the correct angle (roughly 5deg from horizontal line to outer stud, but the mount on left is 5 deg in the opposite direction !
1572961849535.png
This shouldn't be a problem, but the originals,left and right seem to be same as the one on the right.
1572962004569.png
I thought perhaps this isnt a problem as i think the front TEMS bracket can be turned to be aligned with the slot. However if the front shock shafts cannot be rotated too, then that would mean the shock lower bushing cant be mounted to the arm , if the D flat is the wrong angle.
If I do not get any confirmation from other members who know about how the front brackets are mounted, then I guess my best bet is to lasercut 4 of those 1mm plates, and open up the old shocks for confirmation. While this is doable, this will also mean longer wait times, this could set back my schedule by up to 4 weeks from 2 weeks downtime.
I have also ordered the KYB super specials and they should arrive next week. Right now i do not know if the flat part on the TEMS shocks are rotatable or not, so my best bet is to wait for the new shocks to arrive. If they are rotatable, then I only have to re work the rear mounts.
But I have a feeling that the shock shaft is rotatable, so I only have to re work the rear mounts.
 
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alcyon

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Thank you debrucer for the o reily FM1650 help. However I found that it does not locate the spring that well, there is about 4 to 5mm movement of the spring,compared to the OEM isolator that allows only 1mm movement. I decided to make my new flat isolator at 6mm.
If I use the FM1650, It will be a total thickness of 11mm. If i used back the original worn out isolator , i will get about 6mm+6mm = 12mm total thickness. Both is ok. Right now I am leaning towards reusing the original isolators with my new made lipless upper piece. I am really worried about the spring shifting around at the top. And oh yeah, the flat part of the FM1650 is 5mm thick, not 6.35 or 1/4" as i thought earlier.
My KYB Super specials will arrive on monday, and I will do the rear shocks on the 23rd of Nov.
 
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Piratetip

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Post up some good detailed photos of those KYB's.
You are one of the only people I have seen that actually purchased these from Japan.
I am interested to see if they have any unique features or just bolt in like the Tokico's do.
 
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Post up some good detailed photos of those KYB's.
You are one of the only people I have seen that actually purchased these from Japan.
I am interested to see if they have any unique features or just bolt in like the Tokico's do.
I will post photos on my other thread, and will even make a video later.
 
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My solution for D cut problem for the rear upper mount worked. This pic shows the plate arc welded in correct orientation with the old shock as a jig.

1574404404333.png
I poured lots of water after welding get rid of the heat.
After removing the shock:
1574404559976.png
I will remove the slag and coat with rust reformer than rattle can spray this area.
Ready for installation.
 
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Update, 12 december 2019. After a 5 night marathaon after work everyday, I finally completed the front suspension.
I encountered a few issues.
1. The O reilly FM 1650 insulator does not center the sping well enough, it allows a 4mm spring shift horizontally. I modified the insulator , but I found it to be too hard, it pushes the top coil out of shape that the end of the coil rubs the nearest coil going down. I decided to re use the worn out original insulator and place it in exactly same position as before so that it sits snug with the spring. Re using the old insulator isnt an issue because I have my new red insulator as shown in CAD drawing above. As a consequence of new shocks and new insulator, the front end went up higher by about 7mm. Hopefully the red rubber will eventually sag.
2. The KYB SM5160 front mount is not 100% the same as the original part. The 3 studs are shorter, the nuts supplied use 15mm spanner instead of the 14mm originals, and the tolerance of the center hole and D slot is terribly loose. One of my mounts actually allowed the whole shock shaft to turn inside, causing the shock to bind. I only found out about it after installing the right shock in the car. I had to open it again, and use the tems bracket with a grip vise to stop the shock shaft from shifting position. I carefully adjusted the TEMS bracket so that it aligns with the flat bit on the KYB mount and the shock shaft. The 3 studs are short, so the 3 upper nuts for the TEMS cover couldnt grab the threads, i reversed the top flange nuts upside down and it could tighten down the TEMS cap.

After all is done, I did a push test on the front, the rebound dragging noise is completely GONE !
However there is still a creaking noise from the left front. Could it be anti roll bar links ?
 
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