Oil squirters... Keep or Delete???

plaaya69

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#1
I always see divided threads/opinions on this topic but I am looking to hear some more. If you are running forged Wisco pistons and Eagle rods (with no direct oil path from the crank bearing to the wrist pin) on your 7mGTE, why would you want to delete the factory oil squirters?

What is your take on a 7mgte running over 600HP, keep them or remove them?
 
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MarkIII4Me

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#2
It's popular belief that once you go forged internals, the additional piston cooling squirters provide is not necessary and the engine will benefit more from the increased oil pressure gained by capping them off. However, I had brand new oil squirters installed when doing the full built with je pistons and crower rods. I like to keep my cylinder walls lubricated and still have more than enough pressure running a temp controlled oil cooler setup.
 

Koenigturbo

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#3
I dont know anything about engines, but don't forge pistons run "hotter" than cast being they are "further" away from the walls because of the larger piston to wall tolerance's. (By hotter I mean one or two degrees or so). I'd keep the squirters just for the cooling. I don't think higher pressure is necessarily better because some seals are designed for only so much pressure, then there's check valves that need only so much pressure, that just my newbie opinion.
 

suprarx7nut

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#4
I'd keep them. I can't recall seeing clear evidence that a squirter delete provided significantly more pressure over new OEM squirters. You should not use old squirters, though. New or delete.
 

shadowman1977

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#5
I'd keep them. I can't recall seeing clear evidence that a squirter delete provided significantly more pressure over new OEM squirters. You should not use old squirters, though. New or delete.
Sorry but why not reuse old squirters? I just finished a re-build on my 7MGTE and I reused mine. Is there a failure precedence?
 

suprarx7nut

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#6
Sorry but why not reuse old squirters? I just finished a re-build on my 7MGTE and I reused mine. Is there a failure precedence?
The squirters have an integrated spring to only allow flow if the system is at a certain pressure. Over time and after many cycles, the spring may become worn and open at lower pressures. This can lower the overall system pressure. Using new squirters is cheap insurance that you won't be needlessly losing pressure.
 
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shadowman1977

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#7
The squirters have an integrated spring to only allow flow if the system is at a certain pressure. Over time and after many cycles, the spring may become worn and open at lower pressures. This can lower the overall system pressure. Using new squirters is cheap insurance that you won't be needlessly losing pressure.
Got it, thanks
 

figgie

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#8
as long as the oil system is updated to be temp based instead of pressure based.. replace the oil squirters regardless of pistons used. Cheap insurance.
 

hvyman

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#9
Ya keep them. Most modern day engines turbo or not even use squirters. The oil pump will still pump out enough oil.
 

RacerXJ220

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#10
There's still thermal exchanges taking place.

Drag racing, folks are getting rid of them.

In the 1/2 mile and longer events, people are keeping them.

Just JZ crowd stuff I hear.
 

NashMan

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#11
I deleted mine in my old build and well best oil pressure I have ever gotten at all rpms ranges so as long as your tune is good and you have good pistons and keep you oil level up. the crank splash will lube everything is needs to do. and if you want oil jetting on you pistons the stock rods have oil jets for the pistons because they were made to be in a n/a car first and some after market rods come with them as well but still not really needed.

further more people tend to run e85 these days and meth/water injection far cooler combustion temps

but this new build I have going I am keeping the oil jets this time because I am over driving my oil pump to support the oil jets so I should balance out in the end i hope is not i will have to play with the gov valve on the oil pump.



wow been some time since I posted lol
 

suprarx7nut

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#12
I deleted mine in my old build and well best oil pressure I have ever gotten at all rpms ranges so as long as your tune is good and you have good pistons and keep you oil level up. the crank splash will lube everything is needs to do. and if you want oil jetting on you pistons the stock rods have oil jets for the pistons because they were made to be in a n/a car first and some after market rods come with them as well but still not really needed.

further more people tend to run e85 these days and meth/water injection far cooler combustion temps

but this new build I have going I am keeping the oil jets this time because I am over driving my oil pump to support the oil jets so I should balance out in the end i hope is not i will have to play with the gov valve on the oil pump.



wow been some time since I posted lol
I think Toyota (and perhaps yamaha) found the squirters to be valuable, even when designing a motor for turbos right out of the gate. The 2JZGTE has oil squirters, does it not?
 

hvyman

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#13
Pretty much all modern engines use oil squirters. turbo and n/a.
 

NashMan

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#14
I think Toyota (and perhaps yamaha) found the squirters to be valuable, even when designing a motor for turbos right out of the gate. The 2JZGTE has oil squirters, does it not?
As I said above the oiling system is junk. The n/a supra has the same oil pump as a 7mge. The group a engines never used them because this was an easy way to fix the issue. Why was it added,for piston cooling that's about it plus the factory rods were shared so they have oil jets as well. So do you really need that much oil splashed around not really but it helps more than less in less you care about power. This is were windaged comes to mind. And fucused oil splashing such as oil pans shapes use of oil screens trap doors and crank scrapers.

The only thing I say is that if your car stays stock and filled with oil it last a long time. Once pushed past the limits throw away all the old rules and only rule left is to keep the highest oil pressure possible because once the oil wedge break down equals rod knock. If I had a 400 to 500 hp I would even think on running oil jets if I had really nice pistons. The technology in pistons is crazy these days. For example mine are Nickle plated and the domes are increased in thickness and molly coated
 

suprarx7nut

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#15
As I said above the oiling system is junk. The n/a supra has the same oil pump as a 7mge. The group a engines never used them because this was an easy way to fix the issue. Why was it added,for piston cooling that's about it plus the factory rods were shared so they have oil jets as well. So do you really need that much oil splashed around not really but it helps more than less in less you care about power. This is were windaged comes to mind. And fucused oil splashing such as oil pans shapes use of oil screens trap doors and crank scrapers.

The only thing I say is that if your car stays stock and filled with oil it last a long time. Once pushed past the limits throw away all the old rules and only rule left is to keep the highest oil pressure possible because once the oil wedge break down equals rod knock. If I had a 400 to 500 hp I would even think on running oil jets if I had really nice pistons. The technology in pistons is crazy these days. For example mine are Nickle plated and the domes are increased in thickness and molly coated
What about an aftermarket build makes extra piston cooling negative? I don't disagree, I just don't really understand the theory. More power = more heat. Squirters cool the pistons. Maintaining piston temps seems good for all power levels, regardless of how modern the material science is of the pistons. If pressure is the concern, why not update the springs inside the squirters to raise their activation pressure? With all but the most dedicated race-only engines you'll still be producing enough oil pressure to reach your bypass circuit limit (OEM bypass OR internal filter OR cooler circuit), won't you?

Regarding windage, that's got more to do with RPM than power, doesn't it?

I know oil squirter deletes are common in the Supra world, but I don't fully understand why they aren't just modified to work well with the application. In other motorsports circles people go out of their way to add squirters. I don't see a lot of science behind the debate on the forums. Just a lot of name-calling and references to well known shops that do it so it must be true.

I believe all modern Ferrari engines use squirters along with most other high performance makes.

Is the squirter delete just the easiest path to improvement (when combined with raising pressure somehow) and perhaps not the best?
 
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Enraged

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#16
I don't agree with removing them, even with aftermarket pistons. My argument is the same as those above. You can still buy the squirter bolts new.

If you want increased oil pressure, shim the pump (or add a spring/spacer like sixpack on SF), and ditch the stock oil filter/cooler system. Switch to a full flow thermostatically controlled system.
 

NashMan

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#17
Never said they were bad but the stock pump has the same flow as 5m they really didn't change it all that much though out the years of the m series motor such a shame but for stock it works fine. The oil pumps pressure ramp up is bad then once the jets open up the system will slowly bleed down and then recover slowly this is why the base pressure is very important. think of it as a fire hose that has the handle have twisted and you can see the flow blug then you crack it fully you see it increase but up the hose flow is still low and blug is less. To enraged the group a supra had a remote oil system the factory stuff was never used and we all know that our local friend has horrible oil pressure even with ever thing mention above ecetp he does not have the banjo/ oil pipe from arz.

so if you beating on you car going up and down on rpm like drifting from prime example the 7mgte will die faster then any other car that was truly made for them.

as for cooling there is really only 4 ways a piston cools. piston quench combustion ring's , cooling system/ cylinder lining thickness to shed heat from the piston's splash oil/oil jetting.


so why can't we just live on splash lube? answer is bad owners that never check there oil is a prime number one you run low on oil less oil to be picked up from the crank and once picked up from the crank at high rpms less oil in the pan mix this with oil jetting it's even worse.


so I still stand by my statement in a low power car it's just really not needed if it has good pistons and a proper tune and if you run e85 it's going to run cooler same as if you are running water meth since meth will cool down your combustion temps aswell.


easy way to fix this is do what I did over drive the oil pump so it's base pressure is higher problem solved. I will report back with my findings on my oil drive setup





oh ps coating your oil pump gears will do nothing for how much it cost's


oh if you want to know if you have bad base oil pressure is to listen to you car run at idle if you hear a slight hallow knock kinda like valve train noise, that means you have low oil pressure most likely
 

3p141592654

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#19
Let's not keep spreading misinformation about the 7M GTE oil pump being the same as the rest. It is not.

The internal gear length for the GTE oil pump is 4 mm longer (37mm total) compared the the 7M GE oil pump. That means for one revolution of the 7M-GTE oil pump about 9% more oil is pumped than the GE pump.

Gear, Oil Pump Driven 7M-GTE 15122-42010
Gear, Oil Pump Driven 7M-GE 15122-41040

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/EPC/291420/part.aspx?S=15122

http://www.supramania.com/forum/threads/7mge-or-7mgte-oil-pump.9607/

post 84 5MGE used the longer gear too. Probably to address issues withe 5M hydraulic lash adjusters.
 
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Enraged

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#20
Let's not keep spreading misinformation about the 7M GTE oil pump being the same as the rest. It is not.

The internal gear length for the GTE oil pump is 4 mm longer (37mm total) compared the the 7M GE oil pump. That means for one revolution of the 7M-GTE oil pump about 9% more oil is pumped than the GE pump.

Gear, Oil Pump Driven 7M-GTE 15122-42010
Gear, Oil Pump Driven 7M-GE 15122-41040

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/EPC/291420/part.aspx?S=15122

http://www.supramania.com/forum/threads/7mge-or-7mgte-oil-pump.9607/

post 84 5MGE used the longer gear too. Probably to address issues withe 5M hydraulic lash adjusters.
Neat, I didn't know that. Thanks
 

NashMan

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#21
Let's not keep spreading misinformation about the 7M GTE oil pump being the same as the rest. It is not.

The internal gear length for the GTE oil pump is 4 mm longer (37mm total) compared the the 7M GE oil pump. That means for one revolution of the 7M-GTE oil pump about 9% more oil is pumped than the GE pump.

Gear, Oil Pump Driven 7M-GTE 15122-42010
Gear, Oil Pump Driven 7M-GE 15122-41040

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/EPC/291420/part.aspx?S=15122

http://www.supramania.com/forum/threads/7mge-or-7mgte-oil-pump.9607/

post 84 5MGE used the longer gear too. Probably to address issues withe 5M hydraulic lash adjusters.
Well then I didn't know but it's still is crappy thou haha
 

figgie

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#22
If a person goes to a full flow oil system, that address majority of the short comings of the OEM oil system.

The oil squirters, I always leave them. They help in cooling and as they say, cooler running parts will ALWAS last longer than parts that run hot. Of course, either clean them out to make sure they are not stuck in an open state or replace.

Funny enough, this idea is used in NASCAR for tranny and differential. It is not for lubrication purposes but for cooling purposes (since those diffs and trans need to stay at a certain heat range otherwise they wear out faster).
 

shipkiller

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#23
The only reason to not run oil squirters is if you have a GE block (like a run of the mill 1.5jz on GE block)
 

3p141592654

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#24
I don't know if most people really understand the dynamics of plain bearings. There seems to be an assumption made by many that the bearing is supported by the oil pump pressure. This is incorrect.

The bearing load for a rod to crank bearing, for example, is non uniform. When the piston is on the power stroke it loads the bearing on the top side of the bearing. The bearing actually becomes off-center from the journal with a smaller gap on the loaded side and a wider gap on the unloaded side. The loaded side is supported by a hydrodynamic wedge of oil only microns thick and under extreme pressure (as much as 100,000 psi or so). As long as that film holds up and is thicker than the surface roughness so that no metal peaks hit each other, then all is good.

The oil for this think film bleeds away out the sides and front and back of the loaded area, so it needs to be replenished. This is done through the oil feed hole that is strategically placed at an unloaded location just ahead of the loaded area where the gap is starting to open up. This opening up creates a low pressure that actually sucks the oil into to the gap. The oil pump needs to supply enough volume/s of oil to fill that gap. If the volume is insufficient you can get cavitation (small bubbles from low pressure in the gap) and that will cause the bearing to fail.

How fast the oil squirts out and needs to be replaced is a function of the bearing clearance, temperature, oil viscosity, rpm and load. You only need enough pressure to get the cavity full, after that more pressure doesn't do anything but increase the spillage out the sides.

159.1.jpg

Maximum-oil-film-pressure-and-minimum-oil-film-thickness-in-big-end-bearing-of-Type-A.png

Notice that its at low rpm where the film tends to become the thinnest and cause the most opportunities fro trouble assumign you can keep cavitation away. This is why years ago engine lugging was discouraged. These days bearings are better optimized and its not usually an issue. Look at this plot and you can see how film thickness is optimized for about 2mil clearance. Here the conditions are
  • Bearing diameter: 2”
  • Bearing length: 1”
  • Oil type: 5W50 synthetic
  • Oil inlet temperature: 175 °F
  • Bearing loads: 5,100 psi and 12,000 psi
  • Rotation speeds: 2000 RPM, 4500 RPM and 8000 RPM
fetch.php.png

You can read all about it here if interested.
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=oil_clearance_and_engine_bearings
https://www.researchgate.net/public...el_Engine_by_Using_Elasto-Hydrodynamic_Method

Lots of good stuff to be found on the subject.
 
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NashMan

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#25
Thus why just chucking in 50 weight oil that some people did I found funny. You should never seen barring wash or lift the stock pump gov valve will never let this happen