Lexus/Toyota "Supra"

A70BoosTFienD

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#1
So remember a while back when the rumor was the new supra would be a lexus? Well... looking at the current future lineup im curoius to see what the outcome will be but my assumptions are:

LC-F - Looks and feels like what the MKV was supposed to be without the manual and TT powertrain
RC-F - Just a new SC lol
"Supra" - a back to the roots style car which is arguably the same size as the mk3 if not a bit smaller and without the "2+2" layout. Also seems to be more of a track day machine as opposed to the street warrior title the previous gen claimed
86 - The new supra will soffocate this car. I personally like this car alot but the pricing is just to high to get in a 200hp car. At $30k having closer to 270+ would be worth it to me imo


Thoughts?
 

Asterix

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#2
I saw a new blue LC500 recently and thought it had the right body lines to be a candidate, and it looked really nice. Too bad it's a heavy pig and only comes with a slushbox. Way too many techno-widgets, too. Nice huge front brakes, though.
 

A70BoosTFienD

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#4
I saw a new blue LC500 recently and thought it had the right body lines to be a candidate, and it looked really nice. Too bad it's a heavy pig and only comes with a slushbox. Way too many techno-widgets, too. Nice huge front brakes, though.
Right but think about what the MK3 and MK4 were when they came out. Super high tech top of the line cars that not too many people could afford. Short of the auto only options it could very well be what it was supposed to be. Even the concept pictures look like the LC/ to be LC-F
 

GC89

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#6
This is what I have my eye on ^ Heavy but could be a fun car to pick up once they are a few years old.
 

GC89

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#8
It might be turnout to be a competitive platform but maintenance/reliability wise it will have a lot to prove before I give it serious consideration. Also needs a manual....... I am also not all that thrilled with the styling so far

Unfortunately the LC-F is much less likely to get a manual. I like the looks and the fact that it is all toyota much better.
 

A70BoosTFienD

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#9
It might be turnout to be a competitive platform but maintenance/reliability wise it will have a lot to prove before I give it serious consideration. Also needs a manual....... I am also not all that thrilled with the styling so far

Unfortunately the LC-F is much less likely to get a manual. I like the looks and the fact that it is all toyota much better.
All sad and true. My guess is they were banking on the RC-F to take off but its just not enough car for the money in my opinion. Were talking vette and GTR money for a car thats not on par imo
 

Piratetip

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#10
I'm interested to see if the MKV will be released with a vastly different interior than what has been shown so far.
The interior and controls are BMW all the way, I am not a fan of their control layout or designs at all. Prefer the Toyota route.

So that plus the entire underpinnings of the vehicle being BMW made (chassis, suspension design, engine, trans, differential ect...) I am not sure how this vehicle can be called a Toyota Supra.

Pretty much just badge engineering w/ different engine / trans / suspension tuning and controls strategy being different between BMW and Toyota.

I agree with OP, the new Supra is already out with a different name under the Lexus brand.

I am sure the new "Supra" will be a very nice vehicle but it does not retain the legacy of the previous generations.
Automatics will always beat out a manual but it totally looses it's character, has no "soul".
Half the fun of these cars is rowing your own gears, I love it. Every day.
 

A70BoosTFienD

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#11
I'm interested to see if the MKV will be released with a vastly different interior than what has been shown so far.
The interior and controls are BMW all the way, I am not a fan of their control layout or designs at all. Prefer the Toyota route.

So that plus the entire underpinnings of the vehicle being BMW made (chassis, suspension design, engine, trans, differential ect...) I am not sure how this vehicle can be called a Toyota Supra.

Pretty much just badge engineering w/ different engine / trans / suspension tuning and controls strategy being different between BMW and Toyota.

I agree with OP, the new Supra is already out with a different name under the Lexus brand.

I am sure the new "Supra" will be a very nice vehicle but it does not retain the legacy of the previous generations.
Automatics will always beat out a manual but it totally looses it's character, has no "soul".
Half the fun of these cars is rowing your own gears, I love it. Every day.
Ive thought about the 335's or the S5 which is as close as you can get to the platform of what the Supra used to be but i just couldn't pull the trigger on it. For what its worth the RC would have been the best replacement for the Supra but it only came with a V8 auto. If it was a V6 turbo ( not even I6) with a manual option I think it would have been way more successful. Because of its current state its just essentially an "SC200/350/500". The 3.5 liter V6 would have been a great opportunity to show out....
 

Zazzn

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#12
I'm sorry, I'm completely dissatisfied with absolutely everything I've heard about the mk5. What a disgrace to bring it back in such a way... Tetsuya tada, has disgraced the name IMO. No manual, not even a Toyota engine. Geeze this is so bad it's funny. I expect some nasty reliability issues like all bmw's have.
 

Piratetip

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#13
Totally agree.
I would have liked to see the discussion of management that agreed to use a BMW platform to base a new "Toyota" Supra on.
"Guys we need to stick with the heritage"

Toyota clearly no longer has a performance chassis / platform to build off of anymore.
Nothing but Avalon's, Corolla's and Highlanders.

TRD performance should offer a plug and play product / adapters / bracket system to drop in a 2JZ and V160 manual into this chassis.
LOL, that would be hilarious.
I wonder how many they would sell...

Everyone can look forward to BMW electrical system reliability issues at least. /s
 

GC89

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#14
Totally agree.
I would have liked to see the discussion of management that agreed to use a BMW platform to base a new "Toyota" Supra on.
"Guys we need to stick with the heritage"

Toyota clearly no longer has a performance chassis / platform to build off of anymore.
Nothing but Avalon's, Corolla's and Highlanders.

TRD performance should offer a plug and play product / adapters / bracket system to drop in a 2JZ and V160 manual into this chassis.
LOL, that would be hilarious.
I wonder how many they would sell...

Everyone can look forward to BMW electrical system reliability issues at least. /s
I think I am more concerned with cooling system failures, expensive maintenence like replacing the $800 water pump and laundry list of other items ever 60K, injector failures, turbo failures, periodic walnut blasting to remove carbon........wtf who thinks blasting an assembled engine with any abrasive sounds like a good idea? Or the bigger question is how bad is the issue for that to the be the solution they resort to???
 

Piratetip

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#15
Lol, yep.
All valid concerns.

The carbon buildup is an issue on almost all engines that have direct injection only. (No additional port injectors)
Its not just a BMW problem.

It is primarily caused by valve overlap and the reversion of airflow from the combustion chamber back out the intake valve.
Results in accumulation of the byproducts of combustion and likely unburned fuel on the backside of the intake valve / stem.

Other factors contribute to the buildup on the backside of the cooler intake valve; engine oil quality, PCV system, seals wearout ect...

Without the constant spray and cleaning action of port injection fueling, the intake valves turn into what you see now on DI engines.
They will require a periodic cleaning.

DI engines aren't bad per say, the carbon buildup just an outcome of the engineering design they have chosen to use.
This Injection strategy in the OE world is being more widely used for lots of reasons.
1. Fuel Efficiency
2. Reduced Emissions
3. Power Output
4. Driveability / Responsiveness
5. Precision Control

Some engines use both DI and port injection to retain the positives of DI while eliminating some of the negatives with Port.
Toyota uses D-4S on multiple engines.
BRZ/FRS uses this tech.
Some Audi's have it.
Ecoboost has it.

They have chosen to spend more $ on an increased number of parts to provide the best capabilities of both injections methods.
Likely many others as well.
 

A70BoosTFienD

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#16
Totally agree.
I would have liked to see the discussion of management that agreed to use a BMW platform to base a new "Toyota" Supra on.
"Guys we need to stick with the heritage"

Toyota clearly no longer has a performance chassis / platform to build off of anymore.
Nothing but Avalon's, Corolla's and Highlanders.
First part 100% agree. Second part not so much. Toyota does has a performance platform but its branded as a Lexus. They created a branding identity nightmare for themselves.... Imagine if the LC500 had a Toyota badge and a I6 or V6 TT powerplant behind it. Even an RC350 turbo would have been dope with a 6MT. Not one person would question the validity of it being the MK5. This new mk5 could easily have been the new 86 hatch. Being the same size and an engine platform everyone was expecting out a japanese performance car it would have sold well in my opinion but what i think they tried to do was out price the swagets and stance kids by calling it a Supra and jacking the price up. Idk what the future is gonna be but it doesn't look good for Toyota
 

Piratetip

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#17
Yeah I know Lexus has a lot of capable performance sedans / coupes.
But they aren't crossing over any of that tech to Toyota side.

Toyota learned some time ago they make boatloads of cash selling the boring mundane commuter vehicles.=

I am still trying to wrap my head around the management mindset that gave the go ahead to make the new "Supra".

The good news is there are a lot of cross over parts used on it from other BMW models.
So when things start breaking there may be a somewhat lower cost option.
https://jalopnik.com/the-2019-toyota-supra-is-a-bmw-parts-bin-car-1829563030
 

suprarx7nut

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#18
I view the BMW collaboration differently than you guys seem to.

BMW makes some fantastic sports-touring cars. They prioritize and execute weight balance and driving feel FAR better than Toyota ever has - save maybe only for the LFA. BMW has a turbocharged inline 6 in current performance models. Toyota hasn't made an inline 6 in 12 years and they can't just plop a lightly revised 2JZ in the car for emissions reasons. They'd have some SERIOUS R&D work ahead of themselves if they wanted to dive back into the market.

All press reporting has indicated the Toyota development with BMW ended very early on and that despite sharing the same chassis (not a bad thing at all since BMW makes better balanced chassis anyways) and core interior components. Parts manufacture and sourcing details aren't public yet, as far as I know. We don't know what all will be 100% BMW carryover. For all we know, Toyota will have revised the ancillary engine components to alleviate the pricey water pump, modified cooling parts, etc...

BMW has had some flops of models in the last 10 years (E6X generation of 7 series was awful), but by and large they've produced some relatively reliable performance machines. Toyota has also produced plenty of faulty parts in their vehicles, despite overall excellent reliability.

Anyways, I'm not going to let a couple plastic cooling system items or an extra couple maintenance items scare me away from perhaps Toyota's most exciting sub six-figure car in nearly two decades. I want a balanced sports car. If it has some influence from the makers of the M2/3/4/5 I'm not going to discount anything until we learn more about the details.

It might be terrible, it might be the best Supra yet. Who knows. Toyota may have taken all the good things about BMW's performance-oriented design and applied the Toyota methods of quality and reliability and yielded an excellent blend of the two.
 

A70BoosTFienD

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#19
I view the BMW collaboration differently than you guys seem to.

BMW makes some fantastic sports-touring cars. They prioritize and execute weight balance and driving feel FAR better than Toyota ever has - save maybe only for the LFA. BMW has a turbocharged inline 6 in current performance models. Toyota hasn't made an inline 6 in 12 years and they can't just plop a lightly revised 2JZ in the car for emissions reasons. They'd have some SERIOUS R&D work ahead of themselves if they wanted to dive back into the market.

All press reporting has indicated the Toyota development with BMW ended very early on and that despite sharing the same chassis (not a bad thing at all since BMW makes better balanced chassis anyways) and core interior components. Parts manufacture and sourcing details aren't public yet, as far as I know. We don't know what all will be 100% BMW carryover. For all we know, Toyota will have revised the ancillary engine components to alleviate the pricey water pump, modified cooling parts, etc...

BMW has had some flops of models in the last 10 years (E6X generation of 7 series was awful), but by and large they've produced some relatively reliable performance machines. Toyota has also produced plenty of faulty parts in their vehicles, despite overall excellent reliability.

Anyways, I'm not going to let a couple plastic cooling system items or an extra couple maintenance items scare me away from perhaps Toyota's most exciting sub six-figure car in nearly two decades. I want a balanced sports car. If it has some influence from the makers of the M2/3/4/5 I'm not going to discount anything until we learn more about the details.

It might be terrible, it might be the best Supra yet. Who knows. Toyota may have taken all the good things about BMW's performance-oriented design and applied the Toyota methods of quality and reliability and yielded an excellent blend of the two.
I will not disagree at all. The issue here for me is brand identity. The car they are releasing sounds badass short of not having a proper manual but the problem lies with they giving it the "Supra" name. GM almost made the same mistake but fixed it with the MR Vette. The changes would alter the identity of the car completely and ultimately not a Vette.

Thats what i ment by the 86 comment i made earlier. The 86 was a brand new platform with a name that pretty much stood on its own. When you said 86 it didnt exactly scream "corolla hatchback" it screamed "Takumi Fujiwara's Panda Trueno". A true 86 wasn't a coupe to begin with anyway but in any case... This car could have been the 86 or even a new RWD Celica but it just donest match the "Supra" identity short of the inline 6. That is legit the only thing that really ties it to the previous generations

The EPC was leaked - https://www.supramkv.com/threads/a90-supra-engines-and-parts-diagrams-all-revealed.1404/
 

A70BoosTFienD

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#22

Piratetip

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#23
The 6 cylinder is supposed to share a lot of parts with the new X5, from what I heard.

Will be interesting to see how the aftermarket handles turbo upgrades on this.

On the 6 cylinder:
The OEM turbo has a 1 piece cast manifold / turbine housing.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=DB43-USA---J29-BMW-Supra 40i&diagId=11_7910

4 cylinder also looks like this as well.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=DB23-USA---J29-BMW-Supra 30i&diagId=11_7843

For packaging though they are great, very compact.
 

A70BoosTFienD

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#24
the part that i find very concerning is the 2 internal 3-to-1 sections. Thats going to kill aftermarket support big time. The 4cyl dont have that problem. Its looking more like a head upgrade than a manifold upgrade. who knows maybe it wont need it
 

Piratetip

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#25
Aftermarket always finds a way, but its going to be more challenging for them.

Turbo replacement steps on the 6 cyl could be interesting, since these BMW engines slant to the passenger side.
Removing / installing these may only have enough clearances to do from below.