Ignition to Starter Cable

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#1
what is the cable that goes from the ignition to the starter


is it the black with organge line?
 

cjsupra90

previously chris90na-t
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
1,029
Likes
0
Location
Lakeland, FL
#3
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TEWD/MK3/manual.aspx?S=Main&P=038

it shows a black with blue. its a ground wire and then power comes straight from the battery. i saw one the other day that was orange brown kinda color but it was a 86.5
Yes, it is a black with Blue tracer, but It is NOT a ground!!!!!!!!!

The starter has two connections +12V from Battery (positive battery cable) and the 10ga black with blue tracer wire from the ignition switch.. The Ign switch sends +12V to the starter solinoid to engauge the starter. The current then flows through the battery cable to operate the starter.. Think of the solinoid as a Heavy duty relay

Nothing comming off of the ignition switch is a ground.
 

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#5
Yes, it is a black with Blue tracer, but It is NOT a ground!!!!!!!!!

The starter has two connections +12V from Battery (positive battery cable) and the 10ga black with blue tracer wire from the ignition switch.. The Ign switch sends +12V to the starter solinoid to engauge the starter. The current then flows through the battery cable to operate the starter.. Think of the solinoid as a Heavy duty relay

Nothing comming off of the ignition switch is a ground.
oh my god where is the solinoid located
thats the most important thing right now for me
 

cjsupra90

previously chris90na-t
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
1,029
Likes
0
Location
Lakeland, FL
#6
oh my god where is the solinoid located
thats the most important thing right now for me
Its part of the starter!!!!!!

The solinoid is the part that the battery cable and ignition start signal wires hook up to..... The Bolt terminal is for the battery cable and the small spade terminal next to it is where the ignition start signal wire goes.. The starter body is the Ground..
 

hvyman

Dang Dude! No Way Man.
Staff member
Authorized Seller
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
12,714
Likes
17
Location
Orange, CA
#7
the starter has power straight from the battery. and then ground form the harness.

it is better for the circuit for ground control which the starter has..

if you look at he schematic the starter has direct power from the battery and then has ground control for it to start the starter motor.
 

hvyman

Dang Dude! No Way Man.
Staff member
Authorized Seller
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
12,714
Likes
17
Location
Orange, CA
#8
Yes, it is a black with Blue tracer, but It is NOT a ground!!!!!!!!!

cjsupra90 said:
The starter has two connections +12V from Battery (positive battery cable) and the 10ga black with blue tracer wire from the ignition switch.. The Ign switch sends +12V to the starter solinoid to engauge the starter. The current then flows through the battery cable to operate the starter.. Think of the solinoid as a Heavy duty relay.

Nothing comming off of the ignition switch is a ground.
the starter has 2 connections power and ground. it has power from the batt and ground from the harness. i think u were thinking the same thing i was but in a different way.
 

jetjock

creepy-ass cracka
Authorized Seller
Contributor
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
9,439
Likes
1
Location
Redacted per Title 18 USC Section 798
#9
the starter has power straight from the battery. and then ground form the harness.

it is better for the circuit for ground control which the starter has..

if you look at he schematic the starter has direct power from the battery and then has ground control for it to start the starter motor.
What schematic shows that?

the starter has 2 connections power and ground. it has power from the batt and ground from the harness. i think u were thinking the same thing i was but in a different way.
It's different in that he's right and you're wrong. The only ground on the starter is through it's body to the engine block. Starter control from the harness is 12 volts.
 

Nick M

Established 1994
Authorized Seller
Contributor
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
8,810
Likes
10
Location
U.S.
#10
And it is a solenoid, not solinoid, silinoid, or any other spelling or wrong pronunciation of the word. ;)
 

cjsupra90

previously chris90na-t
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
1,029
Likes
0
Location
Lakeland, FL
#11
the starter has 2 connections power and ground. it has power from the batt and ground from the harness. i think u were thinking the same thing i was but in a different way.
Ummm, NO!!!!!!!!!

The stater technically has 3 connection, the third although is not a wire connection, it is the ground. That connection is made when you bolt the starter to the engine / Trans.... The body of the starter is ground. Just like I said, think of the Solinoid as a big heavy duty relay... 12V supply from Battery into solinoid, and out to the starter once the solinoid is active. To activate the solinoid, you supply 12V to the other small Spade terminal (done via the Ign. SW.) All circuits internally in the starter go to the starter case for thier ground paths, through the engine block, through the ground cable and back to the battery negitive terminal... There is your complete circuit.. Look at the link that you even posted, shows the same thing...

If the Black with blue wire went to ground, you would pop the AM2 IIRC (might be AM1 though, dont quote me on it, I cant remember off the top of my head which one) fuse instantly as you turn the key to start position...

Like I said, no wire coming off the Ign. SW is a ground.. They are all 12v Supplies..... Everyone of them....
 

cjsupra90

previously chris90na-t
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
1,029
Likes
0
Location
Lakeland, FL
#12
Hell, that was a waste of time typing that... JJ had already said the same thing... I guess I should read the rest before posting....
 

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#14
easy easy
getting crazy right now lol


see the problem i have right now is that when i turn the key the car doesnt start but all the signs that its going to start, work. such as the lights and the click.

i have a power cable straight to the starter that makes the starter....umm....start haha...well the car.


so power cable starts the car
but turning the key doesnt.

AND AN OTHER THING....

the car starts but then it turns off
i have to warm up the car by keeping the rpms to ...lets say 1500
once warm, the car drives like a new car

is there a cold start.. thing that tells the car its cold and keeps it from going off?


so my questions are:

why doesnt the car start by turning the key?
why does the car turn on and turn off right away? (it stays on if i warm up the car)
 

Nick M

Established 1994
Authorized Seller
Contributor
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
8,810
Likes
10
Location
U.S.
#15
The starter solenoid, in addition to being a solenoid for the plunger, is a relay for the motor. Not to confuse some of you. The EWD probably shows a picture of it.
 

cjsupra90

previously chris90na-t
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
1,029
Likes
0
Location
Lakeland, FL
#16
The starter solenoid, in addition to being a solenoid for the plunger, is a relay for the motor. Not to confuse some of you. The EWD probably shows a picture of it.
Ah yes hence the "solenoid" terminalogy but from an general electronics stand point, its still just a heavy duty relay.... ;)

Still a good point about the plunger part....
 

cjsupra90

previously chris90na-t
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
1,029
Likes
0
Location
Lakeland, FL
#17
easy easy
getting crazy right now lol


see the problem i have right now is that when i turn the key the car doesnt start but all the signs that its going to start, work. such as the lights and the click.

i have a power cable straight to the starter that makes the starter....umm....start haha...well the car.


so power cable starts the car
but turning the key doesnt.

AND AN OTHER THING....

the car starts but then it turns off
i have to warm up the car by keeping the rpms to ...lets say 1500
once warm, the car drives like a new car

is there a cold start.. thing that tells the car its cold and keeps it from going off?


so my questions are:

why doesnt the car start by turning the key?
why does the car turn on and turn off right away? (it stays on if i warm up the car)
So which is it, does it start or not????? First you say it doesn't but then you say that when it does, it shuts down...... Im confussed....

About it not starting: first thing is to unplug the smaller (10ga) wire from the starter solenoid and put you meter on it and have someone turn the key and see if you get 12v on the wire while key is in the crank position... If you do, then I would suspect a bad starter Giving that the battery is good and the cables and cable connections are good... If you dont get 12v on that wire then you going to need to daignose that circuit and see where your loosing the 12v at... Could be a bad relay, could be a bad Neutral start / safty switch if its an auto car or could be a bad clutch start switch if its a manual car.. could also be a bad ignition switch (dirty or corroded contact on the start contact).....

As for the starting then dying part, I would more then likely suspect a bad coolent temp sensor or a problem in that circuit... First off, the car should start without the cold start unless your in a really cold climate... It sounds like the cold start is working fine and the car dies when the cold start cuts out. The time that the cold start function opperates is based on coolent temp read by the cold start time switch and at a certian point the switch shuts down the cold start and the engine warm up function takes control of warm up enrichment based on coolant temp....

Heres a link for checking coolent temp sensor.. try this and see if it is in the correct range..
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?Section=FI&P=113
 

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#19
So which is it, does it start or not????? First you say it doesn't but then you say that when it does, it shuts down...... Im confussed....

About it not starting: first thing is to unplug the smaller (10ga) wire from the starter solenoid and put you meter on it and have someone turn the key and see if you get 12v on the wire while key is in the crank position... If you do, then I would suspect a bad starter Giving that the battery is good and the cables and cable connections are good... If you dont get 12v on that wire then you going to need to daignose that circuit and see where your loosing the 12v at... Could be a bad relay, could be a bad Neutral start / safty switch if its an auto car or could be a bad clutch start switch if its a manual car.. could also be a bad ignition switch (dirty or corroded contact on the start contact).....

As for the starting then dying part, I would more then likely suspect a bad coolent temp sensor or a problem in that circuit... First off, the car should start without the cold start unless your in a really cold climate... It sounds like the cold start is working fine and the car dies when the cold start cuts out. The time that the cold start function opperates is based on coolent temp read by the cold start time switch and at a certian point the switch shuts down the cold start and the engine warm up function takes control of warm up enrichment based on coolant temp....

Heres a link for checking coolent temp sensor.. try this and see if it is in the correct range..
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?Section=FI&P=113
it doesnt start by turning the key but it starts when i connect a power cable to the starter. so the starter is good. and the bat is good

i think its that temp sensor
but since im a huge electical dummy
i had no idea what you said
haha

where is it located?
maybe some of the wires are bad
 

cjsupra90

previously chris90na-t
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
1,029
Likes
0
Location
Lakeland, FL
#20
it doesnt start by turning the key but it starts when i connect a power cable to the starter. so the starter is good. and the bat is good

i think its that temp sensor
but since im a huge electical dummy
i had no idea what you said
haha

where is it located?
maybe some of the wires are bad
In all honesty, if your as you put it "a huge electical dummy", then your better off either finding someone in your area that knows what they are doing to come over and look at it or give you a hand with it or take it somewhere. Its to hard to explain if you are not atleast somewhat familiar with the systems and how they function....
 

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#21
In all honesty, if your as you put it "a huge electical dummy", then your better off either finding someone in your area that knows what they are doing to come over and look at it or give you a hand with it or take it somewhere. Its to hard to explain if you are not atleast somewhat familiar with the systems and how they function....
guess i got to learn the hard way
either way im going to learn how to use it

you didnt start knowing the system right away

so ill just read up and get back to it
 

johnathan1

Supra =
Authorized Seller
Contributor
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Messages
5,056
Likes
0
Location
Downey, California, United States
#22
I volunteer to take a look at it, but you'll have to bring the car to me. Bellflower isn't too far away.

I've had to bypass the alarm and fix cold start/idle problems with my car as well. I think you should worry about fixing the starting problem first, then diagnose the cold idle problem after you've fixed it. Best to deal with one thing at a time.
 

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#23
I volunteer to take a look at it, but you'll have to bring the car to me. Bellflower isn't too far away.

I've had to bypass the alarm and fix cold start/idle problems with my car as well. I think you should worry about fixing the starting problem first, then diagnose the cold idle problem after you've fixed it. Best to deal with one thing at a time.
aww sweet im would bring it. thank you for your help. i believe i need to take the factory alarm off and i think ima try doing that tomorrow

thank you
 

Nick M

Established 1994
Authorized Seller
Contributor
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
8,810
Likes
10
Location
U.S.
#24
it doesnt start by turning the key but it starts when i connect a power cable to the starter. so the starter is good. and the bat is good
So you still haven't checked the small wire on the starter. Clearly, there isn't switched power. You have a starter relay that has to close. You have theft deterent that allows that. You have a neutral start switch that needs to close, or the power is interupted. You have to find out what is open(electrically).

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TEWD/MK3/manual.aspx?S=Main&P=038

And yes, their is a relay in the solenoid, from the earlier sidetrack.
 

Nick M

Established 1994
Authorized Seller
Contributor
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
8,810
Likes
10
Location
U.S.
#25
And the ECT sensor is not a part of the cranking circuit. It will crank regardless. It might not fire up, but that is a different symptom.
 

tekdeus

Pronounced Tek-DAY-us
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
2,119
Likes
2
Location
Vancouver Canada
#27
I had the same problem, that was fixed with a separate relay to the starter solenoid, with 12ga power wire coming straight from the battery. This works because the old stock wiring very often can not supply enough current to the solenoid. It is important to leave the original starter circuit wired up so the ECU gets the signal that you are trying to start it. That's why it stumbles when you start it with a separate power wire. The ECU adds extra fuel to aid startup.

If you do this modification, you must either push in the clutch pedal when starting, or bypass the switch to complete the STA circuit. Otheriwse, you can turn the starter without pushing the clutch in, and you will have a hard time starting it.
 

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#28
I had the same problem, that was fixed with a separate relay to the starter solenoid, with 12ga power wire coming straight from the battery. This works because the old stock wiring very often can not supply enough current to the solenoid. It is important to leave the original starter circuit wired up so the ECU gets the signal that you are trying to start it. That's why it stumbles when you start it with a separate power wire. The ECU adds extra fuel to aid startup.

If you do this modification, you must either push in the clutch pedal when starting, or bypass the switch to complete the STA circuit. Otheriwse, you can turn the starter without pushing the clutch in, and you will have a hard time starting it.
yeah i got all the stuff to do this mod
30 amp relay and such

but i didnt understand what you mean by the last part.
i thought it was only power >relay>starter wire>ground
 

tekdeus

Pronounced Tek-DAY-us
Authorized Seller
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
2,119
Likes
2
Location
Vancouver Canada
#29
yeah i got all the stuff to do this mod
30 amp relay and such

but i didnt understand what you mean by the last part.
i thought it was only power >relay>starter wire>ground
That will work, but just be sure you push the clutch pedal to the floor when you start your car. Otherwise the computer/ECU won't know you are trying to start it.
 

UpbeatFish

<B>Permanently Banned</B>
Authorized Seller
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
159
Likes
0
Location
Fail town
#31
i believe its the lexus afm....
and the car doesnt know its cold
so the cold injector


anyone know how to fix it?
and where its located?
 

Zazzn

OLD school
Authorized Seller
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
1,034
Likes
12
Location
Toronto / San Francisco
#32
So I suspect my issue lies with the blue-black wire triggering the starter solenoid. Does anyone know the AMP draw on this? I redid my engine harness this summer, and just changed my starter so the only wire that I can think of that's causing problems is the blue-black that runs through the body harness to B1.
 

3p141592654

90T
Authorized Seller
Contributor
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
4,040
Likes
50
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA
#34
Do a voltage drop test along the starter circuit. Prime suspects are the ignition switch, the theft relay, and clutch switch or the NSW swith if auto. Wires very rarely are the problem. Also someone on here reported a bad rebuilt starter out of the box from Rockauto.