High compression high RPM 7M-GE build

Rollus

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I didn't meant copy, just doing similar with your own design. I don't know the english verb, for doing something "inspired"/"similar to" another thing.

I seen computer simulations about throttle design, barrel type was the best, butterfly type the most linear between the band, and slider type was on-off like Idle/WOT. I haev to search flow diagrams.

Do you have an idea about the cost of your assembly?
 

Rollus

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Here are some interesting readings:

http://turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2992
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=217736&view=next
http://www.sohc.nl/index.php?action=engine

and my prefered: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=692680&d=10728.40185&nmt=

450Nick said:
Just done quite a lot of work on this for my university dissertation. Designed and built a carbon fibre inlet manifold for a formula sae car and designed (but didn't have time to build) a linear stepper motor controlled telescopic inlet primary system which took a signal from the crank sensor and via a pic PLC controller, sent the appropriate pipe height to the motor which would adjust very fast indeed.

Anyhoo, as part of my research, I did a lot of work into throttle design and flow characteristics and I can safely say that a dual roller barrel system provides optimum flow. Camera shutter types cause some weird vorticies and are difficult to make strong enough, and butterflies create turbulance in the inlet...



What you want is something like this:





Following that, you want to get hold of a copy of this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Theory-Engi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242417460&sr=8-1

And this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/INTERNAL-CO...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242417569&sr=1-2

Ok they are a little pricey, but I'm sure you can get them somewhere cheaper on the net! I had to use the uni library copies... Both have some very good info on intake manifold design and theory though including variable length systems, exhaust gas recovery, dual plenum designs with balance valves, acoustic ramming, helmholtz resonators and all sorts... Interesting reading!
 
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TurboStreetCar

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Wow that dual roller barrel device looks like an impressive piece of hardware. Looks like right about 2-3000 dollars worth of CNC work with materials. :biglaugh:
 

andrew_mx83

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Thanks for those links rollus, some really good reading in there. I saw the word 'shaftless' which really got my brain ticking, and ive nearly worked out how to package it into my design :)
The double barrel design is nice. Ive not seen that before, only singles. I may do a barrel throttle one day, but the design hasnt come to me yet, and you cant rush these things... i understand what you meant, and im waiting for the inspiration! (Your English is very good btw)
As nosechunks said, its an expensive bit of hardware, and fairly complex. 2-3k for a set wouldnt be unreasonable at all. Strictly 5 axis work, holding tolerances in the tenths.

My goal is to have the cost of the assembly as close to AUD$1000 as possible, will see how it goes. Everytime ive priced up a conventional ITB setup for someone, by the time you get a manifold made, buy a set of throttles and trumpets, make linkages etc, 2000 disappears in no time at all. Im really trying to change that with this setup, and make it more affordable by making an assembly that bolts onto the stock lower manifold and has everything in 1 piece. I can post up or email a rendering once ive got the drawing a bit tidier if you're interested.
 

miekedmr

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That is cool... so cool that I could see myself [quite irresponsibly] spending thousands of dollars on dual roller barrel ITBs if anyone made them for 1/2JZs.

Very interesting thread as always.
 

andrew_mx83

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And then all this stuff turned up...


Proper Japanese lpg injectors (not the solenoid type), good for 60hp/cyl. I hope to mount these in the stock rail.
Lpg converter/regulator to suit vapor injection. Rated at 320hp
Filters for both liquid & vapor phases
Rail pressure & temp sender

Aside from the tank, which is already installed, that should be the complete fuel system. Will order a megasquirt and all other the fruit next.
 

andrew_mx83

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Ive done a bit of work on this but not enough
Getting ready to mock it all up and see if the new valve combo works. Pistons and rods are now in for the final time (hopefully!!!).









I recut the intake seats to suit the stock valves, also bought the margin thickness of the valve head down to get less protrusion past the head face. Id taken too much out of the exhaust seats to get a decent seal on the stock valves, so ive put the +1mm Ferrea stainless ones in. These have a nice big radius on the edge of the valve head, which should make it contact the piston much later (if at all)
From memory the intakes now sit 0.3mm proud of the deck and the exhausts 0.5mm, which is much better than when i first put the thing together.
I also smoothed off all the sharp edges in the chambers, ssr's and port dividers where it transitioned from cast to machined, since i needed to final wash the head (again!) anyway. Much happier with all that now.




Just have to set all the valve clearances now so i can clay up the pistons and put the head on for one final check. Fingers crossed it all clears so i can finish off the remaining loose ends and start driving this thing!!!!!


I also bought a gearbox for it, a freshly rebuilt R150
R154's go for crazy money here ($2k+) and are generally clapped out. Im sick of breaking W boxes and they arent exactly cheap these days either.
The R150 is essentially the same box but with shorter ratios. And no supra tax.


oh, lastly.... 4 valve FTW!
 

Aleo24

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Awesome work, got to see a video of your customers N/A 7m on facebook and can't wait to see this one in action.
 

Koenigturbo

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I think it will be really fast. Kinda wondering if it will be laggy in the lower R.P.M range? Should be fine, I spent five hundred bucks porting my heads. and Like you said forty hours of die grinding. Th exhaust note should be crispy, just the way I like it.
 

atmperformance

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I didn't meant copy, just doing similar with your own design. I don't know the english verb, for doing something "inspired"/"similar to" another thing.

I seen computer simulations about throttle design, barrel type was the best, butterfly type the most linear between the band, and slider type was on-off like Idle/WOT. I haev to search flow diagrams.

Do you have an idea about the cost of your assembly?
inspired, motivated, influenced, moved, or roused all work, probably influenced works best for your situation. (i teach English to both Japanese and Brazilian exchange students)
 

andrew_mx83

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Yeah the supra motor came up real nice. It is what i would call my "hot street" motor with 268 cams and mid 11:1 CR, springs, oil mods, 0.40 over, balanced, blueprinted etc, new everything. It is a great combo and drives really well on both street and track. Extremely responsive, happy to lug up hills at 30mph in 5th and excellent power from 4000 - 7500rpm. Can be a handful in the wet.

I have made some compromises with this current motor im building, from being an all out high rpm motor as it is going in my daily and i want some driveability out of it. Ive gone for the heavy 7m crank rather than my preferred 6m one, relatively heavy clutch/fly and probably more compression than is really necessary. It still has the breathing and hardware to hold together at high rpm but im hoping these few touches will make it less of a pig to drive down low. Essentially once it is built and run in i will play with cam overlap and timing until im happy with how it drives.
In an ideal world, id like it to drive as well as the 268 cammed engines to that 4k mark, and then turn into a wild animal once the 280 cams wake up and hopefully pull hard to the high 8k area.


Looks like the supra guy has posted up a new video. We are running a megasquirt on this one (which is a first) so no AFM and no dizzy. Having troubles with it leaning out over 4000rpm but very healthy up til then. At 4000 it is already making more power than a stock one does at 6000, and the cams have barely woken up. We will set the redline at 8000rpm once it is tuned properly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3vRZk-2zOk
 

Grandavi

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I'm not a mechanic, but I'm wondering, at 8000 RPM, with the compression already quite high, any concerns with lifting the head? I've seen some heads that crack around the exhaust side where the head bolts go. Was just my first thought when I read the 8000 rpm redline. second thought was bearing survival. Glad it's you instead of me because I don't understand the entire engineering dynamic for this. If successful, the car will be a monster at those RPM.

Very impressive work so far. Wondering if anyone has done anything even remotely similar. Wish I could run mine on LPG... Lol. It's a bit over half the gas price.
 
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TurboStreetCar

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I think being NA it will be subjected to much less temperature and pressure then even a mild (400hp) turbo motor. I dont think there is anything to worry about.
 

andrew_mx83

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I spun the last motor in this car to 8000 with no bearing problems and i have another that regularly does 7700, both on stock rods + arps. You just have to keep enough oil upto the bearings and be anal during the blueprinting/assembly phases.
The problem with pushing this one towards 9k will be the stroke, piston speeds become horrendous too far over 8000. Im hoping the forged rods, upgraded pins and oil system mods will be enough to hold it together for short bursts. I still maintain that the 5m 85mm stroke is far more suited to sustained high revs but i had these pistons & rods on the shelf so decided to use those and will build the destroked race motor another day.

Previous motor started to have head lift issues over 12:1CR, but im fairly sure that head has gone soft now. The head used on the new build was my hardest in stock (120+) and i added arp insert washers to stop the alloy collapsing around the studs. Im also switching to a MHG now which is totally unnecessary on 99% of NA builds.
 

andrew_mx83

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wow long time no update, not too much work on the engine although i have gotten a couple of hours work done on the head (valve clearances half done now) and bought a few new toys for it. still snowed under with work plus my daily drive got written off a couple of days before christmas, so im back to driving the car this motor is being built for. Only catch is i had to throw a junk motor in it to get me around and it is a total POS, uses more oil than fuel (almost!) and has the death rattle over 3200rpm. It has thrown a constant stream of small issues at me so i seem to spend far more time repairing it that id like to!
However i now have a big ass radiator and big ass fans in there ready for the new motor...

hopefully this bad boy turns up soon


[/QUOTE]
 

andrew_mx83

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Nil progress unfortunately :(
I bought a new daily as the cressida as giving me the shits with needing to be fixed all the time.
I'm actually hoping to get the motor finished off soon, once I get on top of work again. I got the fancy oil pan and I made a revision 2 of the oil pump outlet so the bottom end can get sealed up, then got a few jobs in the head before the long motor is complete (I think)
 

andrew_mx83

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Necro bump!!!
Well there has been some progress lately, quite a bit actually!!
The engine is nearly together, I should have the long motor completed this week or next.
I've just finished reassembling the cylinder head and a new HG arrived recently.
Due to a change of direction I replaced the 280 degree cams with a 268 degree profile, went with 2jz exhaust valves and got a 2mm HG which drops the compression back to 12.4:1
Reason for the slight de-tune is to make it a bit more friendly to drive down low, a bit less stressed/more reliable and able to run on pump fuel.
Why?? So I can put it in a truck and go offroading!!!
Bought an LN65 and am most of the way through the conversion already, hopefully won't be long til it runs now!!
It's quite a squeeze getting a straight 6 in the engine bay but it just fits!!



I can post up more pics/progress on the build if anyone wants, not sure if there's much interest in old trucks around here though.
 

andrew_mx83

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No worries I'll post up some more pics when I get a chance. It's not a bolt in conversion but not impossible either. Biggest issue is room for radiator and fans.

She's definitely 4wd and staying that way. I plan to do lots of tracks and touring around outback oz in this thing. I just finished putting together a r150f transmission for it this week with a heap of mods and upgrades
 

andrew_mx83

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Sorry guys, im pretty hopeless at replying to forums these days :(

Here's a quick pic dump of where the motor is at these days, i had to take a few of the shiny billet parts off to keep things simple for registration purposes but it's now finished and got installed in the truck last night.

















Both water and PS pumps are now electric to free up room at the front of motor for radiator and fans.
 

andrew_mx83

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Standard inlet manifold got the cut'n'shut so i can both keep the ACIS and not have the intake crossing over the motor, it also keeps the airbox on the cold side of the engine bay where there is a bit more room for activities.














Final specs:
12.4:1 compression ratio
268 degree cams
8500rpm redline
Block decked then torque plated bored and honed
Custom 84mm forged flat top pistons by Carrillo with oversize valve reliefs. Teflon coated skirts, ceramic coated crowns
1/4" wall tool steel wrist pins
Eagle rods
7m full counterweight crank ground and polished
Fully balanced and blueprinted
ARP head studs, main studs, rod bolts, flywheel bolts, head stud insert washers
Higher volume turbo oil pump, shimmed relief valve, ported outlet and custom pickup
Custom bulkhead fitting from oil pump outlet directly out of sump
AN-12 oil lines everywhere, twin filters, 50mm thick oil cooler
Needle bearing oil pump shaft retention plate on the front and ball bearing on the rear
Winged, baffled and trap door'd sump
Cometic head gasket
Head heavily CNC ported
Oversized valves
Heavy duty valve springs
Various coolant mods in head
ARP inserts to stop crush around the head studs
Adjustable cam gears
Turbo CPS rebuilt and modified to 24-1 trigger
Mechanical water and power steering pumps deleted and alternator relocated
Billet fitting for head water outlet/thermostat housing
Hurricane headers into 2.5" exhaust
Probably a heap of other things ive forgotten!!!
 

andrew_mx83

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Transmission is a modified and rebuilt R150f with 7m-gte bellhousing. NA clutch and fly with a concentric slave.
New Toyota genuine bearings, seals and syncros throughout. Marlin Crawler thrust washer, bearing retainer, shift fork and shifter bushes/seats. Longer input shaft and taller 5th gear from a Dyna truck gearbox. This drops the final drive from 0.83 to 0.69 bringing the 100km/h down to 2200rpm on 31s with my 4.88 diffs while still giving nice low gearing in the other 4.

A rather expensive pile of parts:


A rather daunting pile of parts:


Starting to come together with the help of a BFH


Into the intermediate plate they go


Shiny new 5th gear


Shifter gizmos installed


All buttoned up with cases


Last thing to do was setup the concentric slave cylinder spacers and lines etc


Quick peek up its skirt, new heavy duty clutch was balanced with the flywheel


And just a quick vid of all the gears turning and f*cking with my eyes!!
[video=youtube;Zm5qPYzXG4w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm5qPYzXG4w[/video]
 

andrew_mx83

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Made up some new engine mount brackets to get the motor sitting where i wanted it. They are designed to take the standard MX83 rubber isolator but natuarally i used my billet ones instead.
Motor is pushed back as far as i can, it sits about 10mm off the firewall but is still damn close to the radiator.











The gearbox crossmember that came with the R150F came out much closer than the original crossmember, when bolted to the car it's about 35mm off the mount instead of 120mm for the original.
Drilled and tapped 2 new holes in the mount itself so i could reuse 2 existing holes in the crossmember and machined up a piece of square solid to sit nicely in the lip of the crossmember with 2 new holes for rear of the mount. It then got welded in and painted.









 

andrew_mx83

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Radiator clearance




Electric water pump




Electric PS pump




Oil straight out of sump and into cooler



Then into twin filters before returning straight into the main oil gallery. AN-12 lines, all the way from the pump outlet to the main gallery is 5/8" or greater ID.





Exhaust (mmmmm V-bands)











That brings us about up to date. All the other work ive done has been a general freshen up of the truck -new suspension, seats, lights, window regs, rust repairs etc etc. Bascially everything from the roof down is new or reco :)
 

Enraged

A HG job took HOW long??
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Care to share details on the power steering pump? What's is it out of and how do you have it wired? I've seen MR2 and Astra pumps used, but the MR2 pumps are getting stupid expensive.
 

andrew_mx83

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Sure, it's just an astra pump. They are plentiful and dirt cheap in junkyards here. I haven't wired it up yet but they just get a main feed direct from the battery and then an ignition feed to turn on. I plan to use an arduino "body computer" to run a few things in the truck, I'll probably use this to interrupt the ignition feed and switch the pump off over 20km/h or so.

I like that the reservoir is part of the pump, the PS system is so simple now with 2 components and 2 hoses total. It's completely separate from the engine.
The alternator dropped almost straight into place on the PS brackets so this would seem like an easy way to relocate that for an FFIM as well.

Supposedly the pump draws 60a or so at full load/lock so I'm looking into options for a more powerful alternator. Are there any alternatives to the DM upgraded unit?
 

Enraged

A HG job took HOW long??
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xCxHxRxIxSx

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Wow I gotta say I love the look and the idea of the intake, it really transforms the 7mge look and with cooler air! Great workmanship, I love to see quality custom fabrication