Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

bestsupraever

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#1
Hi Guys, I could use some opinions on this problem, I have done many searches about this problem, and most threads end with no solution. The problem is the car is hard to start when hot. It starts and runs smooth when cold, but after running awhile then stopping, shutting engine off, come back about 30 minutes later, it cranks fine, but takes more time, then when it catches, it may run stumbling for a few seconds and stalls, this may happen a few times until I get it to run, usually by goosing the gas pedal a bit until it smooths out. When the temps are near 90, it may take 8 to 10 times to get it going. If i come back after stopping in just a few minutes, no problems. Just after about 30 minutes or more. When it cools down, then it starts fine again. I When I had my 86.5 NA supra back from 1986-2002 the car did the same thing after it got about 50k miles on it. I took it to the dealer, they fixed it, and it was fine for the rest of the time i owned it. I wish I knew what they did to it. But now my 87 turbo is doing it. The car has 65k miles on it. I have checked codes, no codes. Timing is right on, tps is right on, Throttle body and afm are clean, Connections are clean and tight, Battery and starter and cables are good and clean. I believe the issue is "Heat Soak", and my feeling is that the VSV for FPR may be not functioning properly. If I understand the thing right, it is supposed to allow vacumm to go to the fpr except when starting a hot car, then it is supposed to allow atmospheric air to go to the fpr to allow it to make higher pressure to alleviate "Heat Soak". Is that the way it works. If I pull it out and test and clean it do you think that will cure the problem. I would do it on general principles , but it is located where it is a pita to get out.
Thanks for any help--Semper Fi
 

GC89

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#2
I believe you are on the right track. Sounds exactly like heat soak is causing fuel vaporization and vapor lock is occurring on the fuel rail. You can check the FPR itself and the rest pressure by following this: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=FI&P=70

If your fuel pressure is correct and not bleeding off when the car sits the fpr vsv is the next culprit.
 

jetjock

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^ What he said. Check rest pressure. As for the FPU solenoid being hard to get you're over thinking it. Just pull the hose off the FPR and check for a lack of vacuum within 90 seconds of a hot start.
 

bestsupraever

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#4
Hello, thanks for the advice. I checked the fpu and cleaned it. It appears to be working as the manual describes.Fuel Pressures are within specs except during Heat Soak. In searching extensively on the web, I found this scenario, that I believe fits my and many others Hard Hot Start problem. TSB eng01189-2010 was written for 1985-88 22r-e and 22r-te engines in trucks and vans. It deals with Heat Soak Hard Start problems on the listed vehicles. Below is what it says.
So I am trying to find the Temperature Coolant Switch Part # 894280-26020. It supposedly lowers the signal to engage from 213 degrees F, to 140 Degrees F, thereby engaging the FPU and CSI at lower engine coolant temps. Which should push the boiled fuel through and compress it enough to hot start smoothly. Problem is, the part is discontinued, and will it fit the Supra if I could find one. Or is there a replacement which fits the degree profile?
Any opinions on this.
Semper FI.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TECHNICAL ASSURANCE DEPARTMENT
22RE, 22RTE HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE
The following parts are now available to improve the startability and idle stability after a hot dead
soak or an extended dead soak.
MODIFICATION INFORMATION:
CONDITION DESCRIPTION IMPROVEMENT
Hard Starting/Rough Reduce the temperature where Temperature
1 Idle after a Hot Dead Switch No. 2 activates the fuel pressure–up
Soak of 15–30 minutes. system from 110C (230F) to 60C (140F).
Hard Start/Long Crank Increase temperature at which the Start
2 Time after an extended dead Injector Time Switch activates the cold start
soak of 3 to 4 hours. injector from 35C (95F) to 45C (113F).
YEAR/MODEL APPLICATION:
CONDITION MODEL YEAR ENGINE VEHICLE
1 1985-1987 22R-E 4WD TRUCK
Temperature and
Switch No. 2 1986-1987 22R-TE 4RUNNER
2WD TRUCK
2 1–TON TRUCK
1985-1987 22R-E CAB/CHASSIS
Cold Start 4WD TRUCK
Injector 4RUNNER
Time
Switch 2WD TRUCK
1985-1988 22R-TE 4WD TRUCK
4RUNNER
PART NUMBER INFORMATION:
PREV P/N NEW P/N COND PART NAME
89428–28030, 89428–26020-- 1 Switch, Temperature No. 2
89462–30011, 89462–20050 --2 Switch, Start Injector Time

TOYOTA
SERVICE BULLETIN
TOYOTA MOTOR SALES, U.S.A., INC.
VOLUME
10
REFERENCE
NUMBER
DATE
MODEL
Page 1 of 3
ENGINE
011
10–20–89
RN
TECHNICAL ASSURANCE DEPARTMENT
Page 2 of 3
22R-E, 22R-TE HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE (Cont'd)
PRODUCTION CHANGE INFORMATION:
CONDITION 1: Temperature Switch No. 2 specification (same as field fix)
changed at beginning of 1988 model year.
CONDITION 2: ECU modification at beginning of 1988 model year to activate
cold start injector at higher temperature (22R–E only).
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
1. Replace cold start injector time switch with the new part.
2. On vehicles equipped with a pressure–up system, (see application chart on page 1) also
replace Temperature Switch No. 2 with the modified one.
3. For vehicles equipped with Air Conditioning, the ACV terminal must be disconnected from
the ECU when installing the modified Temperature Switch No. 2 (Condition 1). This is
necessary to prevent the Engine Idle–Up from working continuously after warm–up.
TECHNICAL ASSURANCE DEPARTMENT
Page 3 of 3
22R-E, 22R-TE HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE (Cont'd)
HOW TO REMOVE THE WIRE TERMINAL
1. Insert a miniature screwdriver from the open
end. Move the locking clip to the unlocking
direction ( ) and hold it in this position.
– Do not apply excessive force to the terminal.
– Do not pry the terminal with the screwdriver.
2. Carefully remove the terminal without using
excessive force.
3. Wrap the removed wire terminal with
electrical tape. Tuck the terminal into the
harness protector and secure with electrical
tape.
 

suprarx7nut

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#7
bestsupraever: Let me help you out here.

Forget The TSB for the 22RE. Delete it and forget it.

Check your rest pressure. The fuel rail should keep fuel pressurized. If it doesn't stay pressurized, fuel boils, starting problems ensue. The temp switches, FPU and FPR will not overcome a loss in this pressure.

Read this:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?88519-Warm-Start-Problems

Again, check your rest pressure or try jumpering the terminals to use the fuel pump to pressurize the system. Read JetJock's thread above.

Keep it simple. ;)
 

bestsupraever

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#8
Thanks for the advice. I haven't had the time or energy to do much more on this problem since I last posted, but today I am going to dig into this further, and come up with a solution. In a few days I will post whatever I find whether it is a solution or another dead end street.
Thanks again--Semper Fi
 

bestsupraever

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#9
Hi Guys, made a little progress on the problem. First I installed a new Coolant Temp Sensor. I checked it at 3 different temps using heated water and a meat thermometer. It checked out right within Toyota specs, after installation the problem did not change, I didn't thing it would but at least I now have eliminated that possible problem. I also flushed, drained and refilled the cooling system with the required long life coolant from the dealer while installing the sensor. I also flushed and refilled the brake fluid after installing a cardone reman master cylinder. The problem was a sinking pedal at stop. The new master fixed it and the pedal is now firm and stable. But now back to the original problem, hard to start hot.

I ran across a TSB # VOL 10 ENG 010 dated 09-01-1989. It states
Condition--Hard Start/long crank time after dead soak when coolant temp is above 22*c (72*F).
Application--1986 to 1989 Supra/Cressida with 7m-ge or 7m-gte.
Correction--Modified Cold Start Time Switch. Operating Temp Prev=72*F --New 113*F.
Part No Prev=89462-40010 New Modified # 89462-20050.
I will also mention an additional TSB # Vol 10 Eng 024 Dated 08-31-1990 was issued to address the 1989-1990 models. It requires a different modified time switch #89462-20060 or a new reprogrammed ECU modified to work with the old unmodified time switch for better startability, and driveability.
I also tested the fuel pressures, below are the results.
Key On ==36 PSI,
Regulator disconnected at idle ==36 PSI
Reconnected Regulator==29 PSI
Key Off @ 10 Minutes Later==26 PSI
Key Off @ 20 Minutes Later --26 PSI.
The technique used to check pressures was described in the Service Manual. The pressures were well within specs. So I am concluding that the Pump, Injectors and regulator are working within specs.
Talking with the Toyota parts man about the availability of the TSB mentioned modified CSI TIMER at first was bad news, but after he dug into it for a while he found one in CA. He said there were about 5 left in the country that he could find. Needless to say I ordered one, and it is on it's way to me. I will pop it in next week and hope for the best. I am only about 50% convinced that this will solve the problem, but I am willing to give it a try as my research hasn't come up with a better idea yet. The previous CSI switch has "22" stamped on it, the New Modified one has "45" stamped on it. It basically tells the injector to activate up to 113*F instead of 72*F. My Feeling is that the temp in a heat soaked engine will be way above 112*F, so the switch won't activate anyway. But as I said it was worth it to me to try it. . My next endeavor while I am waiting for the switch, will be to take the AFM out and clean it with CRC Mass Airflow Cleaner, as I have seen some cases where a dirty AFM could cause a heat soaked engine to hard start. I know to be super careful to not touch the wires in it at all.
All opinions are welcome--Thank In Advance.
Semper Fi.
 

suprarx7nut

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#13
Thanks suprarx7nut. didn't know that about the afm, glad you told me before I fubared it.
Absolutely. Every now and then a thread will pop up on the forums that says something like "My car runs rough (or won't run) after I cleaned the AFM."

It probably would have saved some people if Toyota had put a warning sticker on there or something. Then again, plenty of people would just do it anyways, haha.

The bulletin is odd to me. They say the newer TCCS ECU should not be used with the updated temp switch. Yet, the old temp switch appears to be discontinued. If there is some incompatibility it seems easy for a customer down the road to get the wrong combination of parts. It also makes me wonder how that works with JDM ECUs like I've got in my car.

Again, thanks for finding the bulletin, that's cool to see.
 

bestsupraever

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#14
Hi Guys, new update. Still haven't received the new CSI Time Switch yet, but I tried again unhooking the vac line from the fuel regulator when the car was hot and wouldn't start and run , before I pulled the vac line it catches within seconds, but stalls out within a second or two. So I pulled the vac line and plugged the hole with my finger( I could feel the vacumm pull on my finger), while my wife started the car, started right up and ran, idle was a bit low for a few seconds but then smoothed out and ran fine, I gave it some blips from the gas pedal to see if it would take it and it reved up just like it should without stalling. I did the vac pull a few more times after running around doing some errands, and each time pulling the vac line worked. So pulling the vac line does let it start and run while hot. I also noticed that after I reinstalled the vac line usually within a few seconds of the engine running smoothly, it would drop the idle down to 500 for a few seconds before gradually coming back up to 750 and staying there. So what does this mean, is the vsv bad, or is it doing what it is supposed to. Isn't it supposed to drop the pressure when activated, is it supposed to activate right away when you start. Is this maybe why the Toyota Engineers came up with the modified CSI Time switch, to give it a bit extra gas when starting even while hot.
Any further ideas--

Yes I agree Suprarx7nut. It is curious. It seems they changed the software to fix this problem in the later ecu's. And didn't want the modified csi time switch used with the newer programming. But the modified time switch wasn't produced very long, and has long been discontinued, the old time switch is also discontinued but replacements are still available in the lower heat range. It does make for a replacement nightmare. As for the JDM ecu's there were differences in a few systems between the American version and other countries versions. I guess you would have to look at the number on the CSI to know if it is compatible with the JDM ecu, if it was originally on the car before you got the jdm ecu. But as i wrote in the above paragraph, I wonder if the extra shot of fuel that the modified csi system will give to a hot engine was toyotas' way to fix what appears to be a fuel starve on a hot engine. I don't feel that either CSI Time switch will hurt the running in any way as it only activates when starting. At most with the modified one, it may run rich for a few seconds. IMO.
Semper Fi.
 

bestsupraever

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Hi Guys, thanks for all the help, I am 99% certain that the vsv #17690 in the TSRM online catalog, which is toyota stock # 9091012024 is the bad part causing my problems. Now the problem is where to get one. Of course it is a discontinued part, and a search of many toyota dealers has gotten me the same answer, basically "SOL", I might find one on ebay, but that one may be no better than the one i have. Is there any new one possibly aftermarket that you guys know of that will do the job. I figure I may have to reroute the wiring and vac tubes if the part doesn't fit in the exact location of the original, but that is not a big deal, just need a working VSV that will hold up and work right. I was looking at the Dorman 911-604, it looks the same, anybody here have any insight on that one
Thanks, Semper FI
 

MK3pizzadriver

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#16
Did you test the VSV? It's a very basic part that doesn't fail very easily

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=FI&P=116
(simply apply battery voltage to it and verify that air flows from pipe E to the air filter on it)

When I had a similar problem my car would be hard to start, but it wouldn't outright stall out like yours is.. I dunno.. Have you checked stuff like timing and spark plug wire/coils resistance?
 

bestsupraever

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#17
Did you test the VSV? It's a very basic part that doesn't fail very easily

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=FI&P=116
(simply apply battery voltage to it and verify that air flows from pipe E to the air filter on it)

When I had a similar problem my car would be hard to start, but it wouldn't outright stall out like yours is.. I dunno.. Have you checked stuff like timing and spark plug wire/coils resistance?
Hi Guys, thanks mk3pizzadriver, yes I tested the timing, tps, and fuel pressure, they all test out to specs. No I haven't pulled the vsv out yet to test it, because it is in a tough place to get at, so when I do bite the bullet and get at it I want to have a replacement on the ready to put back in. If I pull it out and test it and it is good, I can always reinstall it and take the uninstalled new good one back to the store. as I posted in my last post, after doing the vac line to reg pull a few times last week, and the car started right up, I am now 99% convinced that I need a new VSV for FPU. I got one yesterday at advance, it is Dorman #911-604.
The OEM ones are not available anywhere that I could find, so I am going to use the Dorman. It looks almost Identical, but there may be some slight mounting rigging that I will have to create. Not a Problem, the function of it is exactly the same as the oem. I tested it yesterday on the bench and it performs exactly like the manual says it should. It is in a knuckle buster place on the car to get at , otherwise it is about a 3 minute job. I will install it this week, and post my results, but as I stated, I am 99% convinced that this is the fix. Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions, I do appreciate them.
Semper Fi.
 

jetjock

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#18
Lot of over complicating still going on here. Again, the VSV is easily tested without removal. It's nothing more than a 3 way solenoid valve. Any 12 vdc 3 way, automotive or not, will work if plumbed correctly. That said I doubt it'll solve your problem even if it is bad.
 

bestsupraever

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Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot--SOLVED

SOLVED---Hi Guys, Today I installed the Dorman 911-604 VSV. It was no pleasure getting the old one out. It's not that it is that difficult, it is just in a place that is rough to get large arms and hands into. There is one 12mm bolt to remove under the intake manifold on the drivers side between the engine and the wheel well. Then there are 2 vacuum hoses attached to the nipples. They are only a few inches long, and then attach to metal tubes that take them to their destinations. One goes to the Fuel Pressure Regulator, and the other goes to a Vacuum source nipple. Then the only thing left to remove is the connector. Just squeeze the locking tab, and it should slip off. Thats it, the VSV comes out with the small attaching bracket. You could take it out by removing it from the bracket leaving the bracket attached, but I found it easier to remove the bracket and VSV at once, plus you need to mount the bracket to the replacement, which is not an exact match.
I then tested the old VSV, it measured 4 ohms on a 200k scale, and did not have any short to body issues, just as the manual says it should be. BUT when I applied 12v to the terminals, it did nothing. The solenoid did not click at all, and the airstream that i was applying went from the in nipple to the out nipple going to the regulator. So that proves that it was inoperative in redirecting the vacuum towards the filter side as it is supposed to do.
I then tested the New Dorman, it measured 3 ohms and no short to body issues, AND when I applied 12v to the terminals, the solenoid clicked. The airstream then went from the in nipple to the filter side, thereby depriving the Fuel Regulator of Vacuum, allowing it to pass the full pressure coming from the fuel pump to the Rail. That is exactly what it is supposed to do.
So here is what I had to modify to install the Dorman. It is very close to the oem, ( which I found impossible to get a new one), but the way you have to mount it to the oem bracket is different. I needed to use a small nut and bolt to hold it to the bracket, (the oem uses a small screw which mates to a threaded portion of the VSV Metal Housing). Not a big deal at all, the new one then fit right back where it was supposed to. Put the Vac tubes back on, I used new tubes, and then the connector, and then bolt the bracket back on. ONE CAVEAT The connection nipple on the Dorman is very slightly different than the oem, There is a small locating tab on the Dorman on the opposite side of the connection nipple from the lock tab. Unfortunately it is not exactly where the oem tab is. It is offset a few mm's, so the slot in the oem wire connector won't slip over it. My solution was to simply cut it off of the new dorman with a pair of snips. That was all that was needed, slipped the connector over the connection nipple, and it locked in place--Done Deal. The whole job took me about 20 minutes, and that was with standing up to stretch my aching back and groaning a few times.
I did finally receive the Modified CSI Timer, brand new from Toyota, but I did not install it, because I do not think that my car has the lukewarm starting problem. So I will just have to eat that mistake. But I do believe that the modified CSI timer is appropriate for some cars that have a hard time starting when midway between hot and cold.
Last but not least I took the Supra out for a long drive, highway, ac on and stopped at a few stores along the way, spaced my shopping out at about a half a dozen locations, I would come back out in 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 minutes to start and go to another location. SUCCESS She started every time with no fuss, just hit the key, and go, just like when it was new.
Thanks again for all of your suggestions, It's now Miller Time.
HOORAH---
Semper Fi
 

Nick M

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#20
Next time remove the alternator and alternator belt and then it won't seem to hard to get to it.
 

Rollus

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#21
Good news.

Twenty minutes to install, one month and a half to admit it could be this and not the CSI time switch and do the hose test..

(the above was posted on SF)

I believe you are on the right track. Sounds exactly like heat soak is causing fuel vaporization and vapor lock is occurring on the fuel rail. You can check the FPR itself and the rest pressure by following this: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=FI&P=70

If your fuel pressure is correct and not bleeding off when the car sits the fpr vsv is the next culprit.
 

jetjock

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What happens when a logical and analytical thinker complicates things due to not understanding how a system works. The type pops up here from time to time and the result is always the same...lots of flailing around. That said I've never seen a faulty FPU solenoid alone cause that severe of a hot start issue. Lots of people don't even have them installed.
 

Rollus

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That said I've never seen a faulty FPU solenoid alone cause that severe of a hot start issue. Lots of people don't even have them installed.
I haven't it installed. I have hot start issue. I run E85 if that makes a difference with heat soak and vaporisation. I will install it back, one day.
 
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Nick M

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#24
I changed mine around 2006. I pulled the vacuum line and the slight stumble after the hot restart cleared quickly. This is going back some, but I didn't see it much either.
 

bestsupraever

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Hi Guys, just a little follow up to this thread. Drove the car quite a bit the last few days, still starting like new. I am convinced the problem is solved. Also, I grabbed the old oem vsv out of the box i threw it in just on a whim, and tested it again with a 12v battery. Still no action. I then cleaned it thoroughly with contact cleaner, blew it through all 3 nipples, shook it around a bit, pulled the filter off and cleaned that, blew air through it and then tested it again, boom, it clicked, it was working again. Tested it off and on about 20 more times on the bench, and it clicked all times as it was supposed to. Also blew air through the center inlet and watched for change of direction of the airflow, and it did exactly what it was supposed to. So I conclude that it was probably gummed up inside and is now functional again. So I will keep it as a spare should I ever need it again. Just wanted to let anyone know that doesn't already know that it seems that it is possible to clean and make functional again presuming that the solenoid is not totally burned out.
Semper Fi
 

bestsupraever

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#26
Next time remove the alternator and alternator belt and then it won't seem to hard to get to it.

Major Correction. Hi Guys, I wouldn't want to mislead anyone. I discovered a major piece of misinformation i gave in this thread, while I was investigating my egr valve. And I want to set it straight. In fact the vsv valve for fpu is below the alternator close to block right below the 1st runner of the intake manifold. The egr vsv is below the intake manifold below the 4th runner. Also in CA. cars there is another electrical plug near the firewall in the vicinity of the egr vsv for a temp sensor. The pictured plug in a thread on the other forum may be for that sensor. That extra plug is only for CA.spec cars. Really sorry for the bad info. I only discovered it when I was trying to figure out where the egr vsv was, and I was thinking the one I saw below the 4th runner was the vsv for fpu, it is not, it is the egr vsv. So in fact I replaced the egr vsv, and that is what made my car run and start better. BTW, the fpu vsv looks like a bear to get to. Probably have to remove the alt, as nick did say early on. I just could not see it from any angle, and did not know it was there.
Luck To All--Semper Fi.
 

bestsupraever

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#29
Thanks for the reply jets, I have rtfm. After discovering that I actually mistakenly replaced the egr vsv, which was not working by the way, and the car does now start and run well, I to can't really explain it. Perhaps by me mucking around with the vac lines, I inadvertantly tightened one that may have been loose, and replaced the 2 going to the vsv, so maybe that would account for the car starting, but not idling right when hot. Don't know for sure. Anyway I am glad that it is running well now.
Semper Fi