euthanasia

aye mate

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#41
Supracentral said:
Ok, but I don't believe in your god. I think it's nonsense. The big question, is do you feel that you have the right to tell me what to do? I feel my life is mine to dispose of as I please. Does your belief give you the right to take that right away from me? That's the larger question. In the end all these discussions end at what should be legal or illegal.
I might be missing something in your response but, in this Country the only way I could ever tell you what to do is by being an elected official. And it is impossible for one official to please everyone and thats why we vote and the majority wins. So I don't really see how I personally could put my beliefs over your feelings.

If you want the right to end your own life or have someone assist you in doing so, fucking vote for someone that has the same feelings.
 

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#42
aye mate said:
I might be missing something in your response but, in this Country the only way I could ever tell you what to do is by being an elected official.
Or by electing officials who would vote the way you want them to... See the question is still, does your belief translate to legislation? Would you elect people who would, by the force of law, attempt to limit my rights based upon your belief.

aye mate said:
And it is impossible for one official to please everyone and thats why we vote and the majority wins. So I don't really see how I personally could put my beliefs over your feelings.
I'll give you a perfect example, on Sunday, I cannot purchase alchohol in my current state of residence. There's no logic behind this. No reason. Just religion. Someone legislated a religious belief into law.

aye mate said:
If you want the right to end your own life or have someone assist you in doing so, fucking vote for someone that has the same feelings.
We already know how I would vote, I was ASKING you how YOU would vote. The question on the table is do you feel you have the right to legislate your religious beliefs into law?
 

Nick M

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#43
Supracentral said:
I'll give you a perfect example, on Sunday, I cannot purchase alchohol in my current state of residence. There's no logic behind this. No reason. Just religion. Someone legislated a religious belief into law.
Yep, that would be religion, just not Biblical.
 

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#44
Supracentral said:
We already know how I would vote, I was ASKING you how YOU would vote. The question on the table is do you feel you have the right to legislate your religious beliefs into law?
Yes! I would vote for someone who is against making suicide or euthanasia legal because of my Religious Beliefs.

I know that your way still leaves the table open. So if I don't want to commit suicide I don't have to but, nothing is keeping you from doing so.
Is that your reason?

Nick M said:
Yep, that would be religion, just not Biblical.
Exodus 20:8,
"Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy.

I'm not going to turn this into a Bible verse throwing match, but I'm just stating that it is Biblical.
 

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#45
aye mate said:
Exodus 20:8,
"Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy.

I'm not going to turn this into a Bible verse throwing match, but I'm just stating that it is Biblical.
Not being able to buy alcohol on Sunday is not Biblical, it's just some guy's interpretation of the Bible. That guy probably thinks Jesus passed around grape juice at the last supper too...

In either case, its a clear example of Christianity being legislated...
 

aye mate

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#46
ma71supraturbo said:
Not being able to buy alcohol on Sunday is not Biblical, it's just some guy's interpretation of the Bible. That guy probably thinks Jesus passed around grape juice at the last supper too...

In either case, its a clear example of Christianity being legislated...
Yes, I guess you are right about the interpretation point. Personally I think that its a good idea, to me, it just helps to set that day apart from the rest.
 

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#47
aye mate said:
Exodus 20:8,
"Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy.

I'm not going to turn this into a Bible verse throwing match, but I'm just stating that it is Biblical.
Saturday is the Sabath...

Sunday is just convient for Southern Baptists....in my opinion.
 

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#48
aye mate said:
Yes, I guess you are right about the interpretation point. Personally I think that its a good idea, to me, it just helps to set that day apart from the rest.

welp..im glad i dont live there..cause i love watching NFL Sunday and drinking beer.
 

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#49
aye mate said:
Yes! I would vote for someone who is against making suicide or euthanasia legal because of my Religious Beliefs.

I know that your way still leaves the table open. So if I don't want to commit suicide I don't have to but, nothing is keeping you from doing so.
Is that your reason?
Yes, just trying to gauge where you are coming from. To me, individual liberty means more than anything. Individual liberty ensures the right to freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to run your life as you see fit, etc. I wanted to see what you held valuable. To me it appears you value your own religious beliefs above all, regardless of how much they infringe upon anothers rights to life, liberty or property.

Am I reading that wrong?

Johnny Dangerously said:
aye mate said:
Yes, I guess you are right about the interpretation point. Personally I think that its a good idea, to me, it just helps to set that day apart from the rest.

welp..im glad i dont live there..cause i love watching NFL Sunday and drinking beer.
Oh, it doesn't actually stop any of us from drinking on Sunday, we just buy it all on Saturday night. It's actually comical.
 

aye mate

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#50
Supracentral said:
Yes, just trying to gauge where you are coming from. To me, individual liberty means more than anything. Individual liberty ensures the right to freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to run your life as you see fit, etc. I wanted to see what you held valuable. To me it appears you value your own religious beliefs above all, regardless of how much they infringe upon anothers rights to life, liberty or property.

Am I reading that wrong?
I don't think you are. I would give up all my freedom to keep my salvation. At least I would like to think I would. Since I (fortunately) have never been in a situation where I have had to. Reading about martyrs and saints in the Bible and history books is alot different/easier than living out the actions they took to retain their Faith.

Its hard to say about others rights. I feel like I should be sympathetic to others and their rights, but I also feel like I would need to draw the line between doing what I know is right and making others feel good.

Now I obviously DO NOT believe that this country should be run under any sort of religious dictator! In Christianity, people must accept the Salvation, you cannot earn it or be forced into it. Salvaton from sin has been offered to everyone, its just a matter of whether they choose to accept it.

I guess I inadvertantly answered you, I would certainly fight for my rights to religious freedom and free speech, even if it infringed on someone elses rights. I would like to see the same beliefs that I follow being excercised by people everywhere, but that, of course, is their decision. Did I clear myself up any?


EDIT- I would like to add that I am thankful to all (on both sides) who have restrained any BS comments about the disscussion at hand. I think it has helped this to stay unheated and not turn into a flame war. Thanks!
 

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#51
Johnny Dangerously said:
welp..im glad i dont live there..cause i love watching NFL Sunday and drinking beer.
I do it every Saturday and Sunday during the fall. As long as it is the tangent, I had a great time gambling in Vegas too.
 

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#52
aye mate said:
I feel like I should be sympathetic to others and their rights, but I also feel like I would need to draw the line between doing what I know is right and making others feel good.

Now I obviously DO NOT believe that this country should be run under any sort of religious dictator!

<snip>

I would certainly fight for my rights to religious freedom and free speech, even if it infringed on someone elses rights. I would like to see the same beliefs that I follow being excercised by people everywhere, but that, of course, is their decision.
I was going to write a reply saying that I don't see how prohibiting people from buying alcohol on Sunday was interfering with your right to practice your religion. But I just came back from the polls where I voted to increase the sales tax on cigarettes. Not because I desparately wanted to see top-level hospital administrators get fatter pockets, but because I really want to see fewer people smoking (and I used to smoke myself).

So I guess it would be pretty sweet if everyone in the country felt exactly the same way I do so we all could devise fair laws everyone agreed with...


On the other hand, look at the Amish. They have some unusual (some would say extreme) views, and yet they don't have a problem living in a society where people are allowed to do things they are against... Dunno, it's tough
 

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#53
aye mate said:
Now I obviously DO NOT believe that this country should be run under any sort of religious dictator! In Christianity, people must accept the Salvation, you cannot earn it or be forced into it. Salvaton from sin has been offered to everyone, its just a matter of whether they choose to accept it.
I'm having a hard time reconciling that statment with your other statements.

You've basically said you'd use the power of the vote to legislate your religion onto others, but you don't support a Theocracy? People must freely accept your "salvation", but you'd force your rule upon others anyway? No single indiviual as "religious dictator"? But a group filling the role of "religious dictator" is ok?

Sorry, hypocrite doesn't even cover that. Plain old 'nuts' sounds more accurate.

Again, if I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me.

However it seems like you want to 'say one thing and do something different' and just have everyone accept that what you say is the truth, regardless of your actions.
 

aye mate

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#54
Supracentral said:
I'm having a hard time reconciling that statment with your other statements.

You've basically said you'd use the power of the vote to legislate your religion onto others, but you don't support a Theocracy? People must freely accept your "salvation", but you'd force your rule upon others anyway? No single indiviual as "religious dictator"? But a group filling the role of "religious dictator" is ok?

Sorry, hypocrite doesn't even cover that. Plain old 'nuts' sounds more accurate.

Again, if I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me.

However it seems like you want to 'say one thing and do something different' and just have everyone accept that what you say is the truth, regardless of your actions.
I definately didn't mean to come across like that. I'm not in favor of forcing my Religion on anyone. What I meant convey was that its not possible to FORCE Salvation on anyone. God has offered it to anyone that wants Salvation from sin.

But of course I would vote for someone that shares the same views as I do, especially if they claim the same God I do and found their beliefs on that. I think anyone who votes does that.

That doesn't mean I'm a fanatic that relishes the idea of everyone being the same as me, whether they want to or not.

This might undo what I just explained but here goes. I think that if a country were to be governed through the Bible that it would be a good thing. Whether you live by the Bible or not there are some great humanitarian ideals that can stem from its passages.

I do know that its not possible to make people believe and live by what is in the Bible. Believe you me, its hard enough to live by it just on your own let alone trying to keep anyone else accountable to it also. So that is why I do not support a Theocracy, in this world, it would be impossible.
 

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#55
aye mate said:
I think that if a country were to be governed through the Bible that it would be a good thing. Whether you live by the Bible or not there are some great humanitarian ideals that can stem from its passages.
What if the country were run based on the teachings of the quran(sp?) or any other religious book that isn't what you believe in. What then? Would you want to live in a place with religiously influenced laws that you don't believe in?
 

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#56
OneJoeZee said:
What if the country were run based on the teachings of the quran(sp?) or any other religious book that isn't what you believe in. What then? Would you want to live in a place with religiously influenced laws that you don't believe in?

THANK YOU.
 

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#57
OneJoeZee said:
What if the country were run based on the teachings of the quran(sp?) or any other religious book that isn't what you believe in. What then? Would you want to live in a place with religiously influenced laws that you don't believe in?
No I wouldn't want to. But I bet if you asked a Muslim that question you would get a different answer. And if everyone believed in the teachings of the Quaran then I bet it wouldn't be a problem. You can see in Islamic countries, that do try exactly what you are saying, what happens.

I explained that I know it is impossible.

I would not want to live in a place with laws that I don't believe in, but that doesn't mean that if I have a chance to change a law that I don't agree with that I won't try. Thats why I, or anyone for that matter, votes for who they vote for. I know that there will always be laws that I don't agree with, but thats no reason to stop believing and living by my beliefs.
 

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#58
aye mate said:
No I wouldn't want to. But I bet if you asked a Muslim that question you would get a different answer. And if everyone believed in the teachings of the Quaran then I bet it wouldn't be a problem. You can see in Islamic countries, that do try exactly what you are saying, what happens.

I explained that I know it is impossible.

I would not want to live in a place with laws that I don't believe in, but that doesn't mean that if I have a chance to change a law that I don't agree with that I won't try. Thats why I, or anyone for that matter, votes for who they vote for. I know that there will always be laws that I don't agree with, but thats no reason to stop believing and living by my beliefs.
aye mate said:
I think that no one has the right to take their own life or someone elses.
aye mate said:
Yes! I would vote for someone who is against making suicide or euthanasia legal because of my Religious Beliefs.

You wouldn't want to live in a place with laws you don't believe in but you would willingly force your own beliefs on everyone else through legislation?
 

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#60
aye mate said:
If you don't vote for what you believe in then why vote at all?
OK, so voting to make your religious beliefs the law of the land for all, even if they don't belive in the same religion you believe in, is ok. got it.
 

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#61
aye mate said:
If you don't vote for what you believe in then why vote at all?
Do me a favor.

Read this:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229416&postcount=70

It's in reply to something slightly different, but I think it covers pretty much what I have to say on the topic.

It's all a matter of what you value and why. Give that entire post a fair read (I know it's a long one) then come back and tell me that you still feel there is justification for making your religion law.
 

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#62
OneJoeZee said:
OK, so voting to make your religious beliefs the law of the land for all, even if they don't belive in the same religion you believe in, is ok. got it.
Your argument goes both ways. If you were to vote for the opposite side of an issue as me, how does what you just said not apply?

SupraCentral - I'll read your linked reply another time. Its a bit long for me to cover tonight. ;)
 

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#63
aye mate said:
Your argument goes both ways. If you were to vote for the opposite side of an issue as me, how does what you just said not apply?
No it doesn't go both ways. I would not try to make my religious beliefs law to force on everyone else.