Conversion from NA to SUPERCHARGED NOT Turbo....

ianstaley

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Hi from the UK to all our cousins in the US. That's the formalities over, my name is Ian and apart from the spelling we do it sometimes quite different over here the meaning is the same. And in Toyota Supra world we all talk the same language. My Supra was bought way back in 87.5 by me brand new and I have had her since then, 178000 Klics on the clock and never a BHG or real serious problems, my exhaust is original, every thing on her is except for consumables Oh and new master brake cylinder that went bad about 12 years ago (just about due for another). :icon_razz.

Now I have to be looking at some major work soon and I am contemplating some changes but I hate Turbo's with a vengeance, had two cars that were turbo'd, both went boom real quick. But there are so many superchargers around, and so cheap used as well as new and unused that it has to be a great way to shove extra horses to the rear wheels. I have got some Turbo pistons brand new and unused for $79.00

So I bought them I couldn't get them cheaper unless I stole them. so thinking my car has had some serious road usage then sooner rather than later she is going to need some serious TLC.
So has anyone gone this rout before and if so what was the end result like. I think I would need to change out the maf maybe, piggy back the ECU with an apexi or maybe turbo ECU. If I change out the pistons for Tubby ones my comp should be a bit lower not to blow out the motor.

So if anyone has done this and documented the build can they point me in the right direction please.

Ian
 

Dan_Gyoba

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No documented build, but I did look into this rather extensively.

The GE's electronics package is not suitable for forced aspiration. (It can be done, but it's such a pain that I wouldn't bother.) You are far better off going with the turbo ECU and electronics, and with that, you're better off with the turbo block.

There are a lot of threads on the differences between the turbo and NA block, so you can find a bunch there. None of them would be a show-stopper, but I'd probably use the GTE oil pump for your build.

For the electronics, there are a lot of advantages to the GTE's package, unless you want to go full stand-alone, I'd recommend it heavily. Additional knock sensor, CPS instead of distributor, better ignition overall, No flapper style AFM, low impedance, larger injectors, plus the ability to easily swap in larger ones with the Lexus/550 mod.

Keep it intercooled for sure.

With the supercharger, you will almost certainly lose cruise control, unless you swap in the GTE's goodies for keeping cruise under boost, since your boost is now RPM based, instead of load based. Much of the rest will depend on what kind of manifold pressure you're going to be targeting.

<=10 PSI. This is the most feasable, and the one that's least likely to kill your engine. In this case, stock GTE electronics, AFM and injectors are likely to handle everything. You'll enjoy better throttle response than a stock turbo, but at about the same peak power as someone who has popped on a boost controller. Look forward to leaving the stock turbo behind at the line, but not for long, since the turbo will make more midrange power after spooling up, while you're still building boost. (10 PSI limit based on UK locations, assuming elevations less than 1000ft above sea level.) Note that for this target, I might keep the NA pistons, as they're just as strong as stock turbo pistons, and the extra compression would provide a further edge.

10PSI - 14PSI. You'll need some additional fuel. Lexus/550 is good at this range. Probably no additional tuning electronics. Same as above, if compared to a stock turbo with the Lexus/550 mod and boost control.

14PSI - 18PSI. Lexus/550 should be good here. More or less same as above, but compared to GTE with 57 trim or 60-1 trim CT26 upgrade and supporting mods. Now you should be looking at additional tuning electronics, including wideband and EGT to keep track of what your engine is doing, and manage it to keep it reliable. This is getting to where I'd start considering forged pistons.

>18PSI. Have fun keeping the back end following the front end. :D

Note that at NO POINT would I consider a supercharged 7M to be more reliable than a turbocharged one. All of the same tolerances and build advise must be followed in order to keep from doing damage to the engine, as well as the same tuning and fuel considerations. The sole point of failure that you are removing is the turbocharger itself, and you are adding in one in the form of the supercharger and its belt drive. All of the same common failures under boost remain.
 

redrocco

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I am a big fan of superchargers my self and I have both supercharged and turbo cars. One of the first things that you need to consider is what type and displacement of supercharger you need. I prefer and would recommend a twin screw like a whipple, kenne bell, autorotor or sprintex over a roots or Centrifugal type. As far as twin screw displacement for a 3.0L lowered compression engine I would recommend something in the 1.6L to 2.6L per rotation range. The 7M-GTE electronics with a piggyback would probably work just fine but if you don't have them already then why not just go standalone and do it right. you can buy a new megasquirt 2 ECU for about $450 VS. a used 7M-GTE harness and ECU and your choice of piggyback for almost as much. There is a ton of support for megasquirt and its the best ems for the money as far as I have seen.

link to DIY auto tune, a good place for mega squirt stuff.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-ems-system-smd-pcb357-assembled-ecu-p-171.html
 

hvyman

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Go with ms3 and wire for full sequential ignition and fuel.
 

suprarx7nut

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Such hatred for turbos shows you've never owned a properly done Supra. ;)

Going on 15k miles and 3 years with a home garage DIY turbo build here. 12 psi ~5800 shifts all day long. :)

Good luck with the sc though. That'd still be fun, but you'll spend a lot of effort just to get it fabbed up and running.

The health of any boosted motor is based on the build quality and tuning. You can blow up anything with a corner cutting build.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 

ianstaley

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Thanks guys for all the info at last over here there is only one way. I don't hate Turbo's per say but I built a Turbo BMW 730 years ago so 3.0 and a KKK from a 745. Man I crapped myself one night, I had stopped under a bridge and open up the hood, the turbo and about 12 inches of downpipe were cherry red, BMW told me that the full operating temp was about 900 degrees C. couldn't believe it. This is about the time I bought the Soup. I blew the Beemer TWICE in five months, that's a big put off.

So my problem is this. Custom means exactly that custom one off don't follow the lead Ram. I know that my aversion is developed directly from the BMW day's, and I must say I had so much fun with it while it was alive. In Holland where I lived at the time one evening I decided to try and see what it could do without the factory limiter. At 275 Kph on the clock (not real I know) but never the less it was fantastic. I got pulled by a cop in a Porsche 911 Targa. He told me that it had taken them more than 2 minutes to haul me in, this from a cop that in those days ran a car that would pull well over 270 Kph, they were tuned. He let me go only because I was flying out of the country the following monday and I had my flight ticket with me at the time, otherwise I would have got a fine of about 3000 bucks.

That aside, you have given me a lot of inspiration and very sound advice. I don't want to burn off every thing in sight, but I do want a wolf in sheep's clothing. We have a few meets over here and the turbo guy's just look down on the NA owners. I get crap all the time with buy a real car, they don't get the fact that I bought my car when their mothers we still wiping their ass and changing their dypers.

My car is now 25 years old and my youngest daughter 42 has threatened me with premature crucifixion if I don't leave her the car in my will. But at 61 now I think I have about 1 rebuild left in me energy wise. And this just gives me goose bumps thinking about it. Lots of people say that the MA70 is not a reliable engine, but mine has never let me down, NOT once. So I think she deserves to be able to lift her skirts and give a CT26 tubby a run for their money.

So Dan_Gyoba, Redrocco, Hvyman and SupraRx7nut many thanks for the very valuable information. YOU ALL ROCK :bigthumb:
 

IJ.

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Researched this many many years ago (about 14) to the point I bought a Blower so I could size up the installation, ended up not proceeding and went the far easier Turbo route as I wanted to maintain ALL of the features that make a Supra a Supra, fitting a Blower meant compromises and Intercooling it wasn't an option for a PD style Charger, A Centri is the worst of both worlds so also not an option even though fitting/intercooling is much easier.

Biggest + The Blower has over the Turbo is heat management underhood, I did a T04Z/LS Chev in the Mk3 a few years back and heat was such a major issue, no such problem with the Blower ;)
 

ianstaley

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Great guys keep it coming need all the info no matter how negative or positive, it all helps to make the choice.
 

JesseH

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I am currently running a turbo/supercharger setup. Unless you have some good knowlege of some CAD software and/or know a tool maker or machinist I wouldn't recomend going for it... Besides the custom manifold and piping, your A/C will have to be deleted and your alternator will have to be put in it's place, I had to move my brake proportioning valve back a couple inches to clear the supercharger, my battery and fuse box were already relocated and a few other misc things.

So it can be done, it will cost some good money if you can't fabricate the parts yourself, along with some decent time esp. if you have never done any fabrication work before. If your doing it to be different then go for it, if your just trying to make a reliable fun car I don't think you can beat the factory turbo setup.
 

ianstaley

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I have at my disposal a machine shop of sorts, radial floor standing drill, lathe, computers and when I left my school I trained as a toolmaker for some years with BSA in the UK. I will be doing a fabrication and welding course in the new year with the object of restoring classic cars. I don't want to add a turbo to the system and I have inherited the mechanical skills my father had when he helped to develop the first D type. and there are a lot of OLD school machine shops round here where I live. so a tradition of lateral thinking. So my idea unlike your beast is only half your problem, just using the supercharger. Look I want enough boost to shit all over a normal CT26 equipped tuby to say 60 or 75 miles an hour. I don't care if he blows me away after that, I just want to see the abject misery in the face of the dude when I shit down his neck for the first few hundred feet. For the rest he can whup me every day if he likes, it's the knowledge that I can say to him in front of all the other tubby pushers so who got to 70 firsts then? Oh and the charger I am looking at is MB e class costs about 2-300 pounds over here for a good one. now if Mecedes can make one with a supercharger, and still have cruise then there has to be a way. Ian
 

Grandavi

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Initially I wondered about the supercharger over the turbo on a 7M (or even a 2j) and in the end, it goes to design. If you succeed, you will be the first.

However... if you were told nobody feeds a horse fresh cut lawn grass because fresh cut hay is better and you decided to be different, dont stop thinking about why nobody else is doing it. There's usually a very valid reason.

If you do go through with it.. then make sure you start a build thread. Going to be interesting to see how you handle the challenges thrown at you seeing as most of everything will have to be altered slightly to suit the end result. I dont think it has been done before.

The only supercharger I have seen on a Toyota engine swap was on a V8 Tundra... but that was years back.

hmm... google is your friend...
http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?233707-Project-Supracharger

thats one example.. but in a MKIV.

and this...
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?146672-Mk-IV-Jap-Spec-N-A-220-HP-How-to-Supercharge&s=&perpage=25&highlight=supercharge supra
 

redrocco

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I have a 1.6L whipple twin screw on the 1UZ-FE v8 in my MK3 supra. I do love it when people ask me "is it turbo" and I can say nope.
 

ianstaley

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Keep it up there is clearly two sides to this and I am getting more and more into the idea of it. There is plenty of room in the engine bay There is a member of the English supra owners that has fitted the biggest Turbo I have ever seen, ok he is doing it to drag it but with a 110mm inlet throat on the Turbo he is going to pass and compress a lot of air. My desire isn't that I just want a nice street machine that has something different under the hood. So huge boost isn't what I want. That is why I am looking towards a Mercedes unit or a Jag unit. Both cars have cruse so I just need to understand more about what I am attempting to do technically.

Let's face it guy's America is the land of "who says it can't be done", you know I am right.
 

Grandavi

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I think it can be done, but it's a lot of work and money that isn't thought to be worth it. Probably make a more street able car if you succeed, but I think you need to have a lot of time and money to waste. I wouldn't try it in a mark3, maybe a markiv.
Either way, once you get it started, will be a very interesting project to watch.


You are thinking of doing it to the I-6?
 

JesseH

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I have at my disposal a machine shop of sorts, radial floor standing drill, lathe, computers and when I left my school I trained as a toolmaker for some years with BSA in the UK. I will be doing a fabrication and welding course in the new year with the object of restoring classic cars. I don't want to add a turbo to the system and I have inherited the mechanical skills my father had when he helped to develop the first D type. and there are a lot of OLD school machine shops round here where I live. so a tradition of lateral thinking. So my idea unlike your beast is only half your problem, just using the supercharger. Look I want enough boost to shit all over a normal CT26 equipped tuby to say 60 or 75 miles an hour. I don't care if he blows me away after that, I just want to see the abject misery in the face of the dude when I shit down his neck for the first few hundred feet. For the rest he can whup me every day if he likes, it's the knowledge that I can say to him in front of all the other tubby pushers so who got to 70 firsts then? Oh and the charger I am looking at is MB e class costs about 2-300 pounds over here for a good one. now if Mecedes can make one with a supercharger, and still have cruise then there has to be a way. Ian
Even if you do just you do just the supercharger setup you will still have to do everything I stated to make the room for it.. so supercharger sizing is going to be a factor since you have limited space on the intake side of the motor along with the snout length so you can line the belt up without having the supercharger butt up against the brake booster.

So like i said it can be done, mine runs great... so if you really want to do it go for it just know it's not going to be a quick project.
 

IJ.

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I have a well equipped machine shop here at home and have spent 35+ years playing with cars and have rarely put something in the too hard basket, a PD Blown 7M/Mk3 combo is just that, to do it properly and not lose half the Supra Features as I outlined in my previous post is a HUGE undertaking.

While it appears there's a lot of room get a blower in your hands and do a test mockup, you'll soon see the room has vanished.

If you do it and pull it off by all means run a build thread here so we can follow the progress! :)
 

Poodles

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I'm sure it can be done easily if you run only an alternator and don't go intercooled.

The question in that case is why bother...
 

redrocco

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There is also a neet trick that I found for running a supercharger that I have not had to use yet but is allways my fall back plan. On military diesel generators they run 1 or 2 roots superchargers but to make repairs and maintenance easy they run them hydraulicly. Same basic idea as the toyota hydraulic radiator fans. A small varyable displacement piston pump or fixed displacement gear pump driveing a properly sized hydraulic motor attched to the supercharger insted of its normal snout. If you use a fixed displacement pump then blower rpm rises with crank rpm like normal but with a varyable displacement pump you can have maunual, electric, load or flow controling your blowers speed. That means you can program your boost however you want. I will look and see if I can find some pics and post them up. This would allow you to mount the supercharger anywhere.
 

IJ.

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Nice idea, only issue I can see is the speed of the blower for a Gas engine is very high wonder is the Hyd Slave will cope?
 

redrocco

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The VOLVO/PARKER F11-005 hydraulic motors are rated for maximum intermittent of 14,000RPM and max continuous of 12,800RPM. They are used on hydraulic chain saws and other such high speed apps. They only weigh about 11 LBS and are about 4 inch by 4 inch by 5 inch. The eaton M112 supercharger has a max RPM of around 14,000 and the M90 is around the same. Most whipples max out at around 16,000 so if any of these were driven by the F11-005 they should make plenty of boost.

link to one on UK ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOAC-VOLVO-PARKER-F11-005-MB-CV-K-RECON-UNIT-/271082764713?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item3f1dcab9a9

Link to the parker F11 catalog
http://www.parker.com/literature/Literature Files/hydraulicpump/cat/english/F11-F12_HY17-8249-US.pdf
 

ianstaley

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Okay thanks guys as you can see there is always another way to skin the cat, never thought of hydraulic. Ia,
 

IJ.

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The VOLVO/PARKER F11-005 hydraulic motors are rated for maximum intermittent of 14,000RPM and max continuous of 12,800RPM. They are used on hydraulic chain saws and other such high speed apps. They only weigh about 11 LBS and are about 4 inch by 4 inch by 5 inch. The eaton M112 supercharger has a max RPM of around 14,000 and the M90 is around the same. Most whipples max out at around 16,000 so if any of these were driven by the F11-005 they should make plenty of boost.

link to one on UK ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOAC-VOLVO-PARKER-F11-005-MB-CV-K-RECON-UNIT-/271082764713?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item3f1dcab9a9

Link to the parker F11 catalog
http://www.parker.com/literature/Literature Files/hydraulicpump/cat/english/F11-F12_HY17-8249-US.pdf
What about the load rating, not sure on Modern Blowers but the old 6/71's would take 100hp to turn at 5000 rpm.
 

redrocco

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At 12,800 RPM the f11-005 has about 20 LBS TQ and 19 HP if my math is correct. Probably wouldn't spin a big old 871 but should be just fine for a 1.5L to 3.0L whipple or autorotor style supercharger.
 

te72

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A couple view points of my own, although some of the ideas presented are quite interesting to me...

-I can only think of maybe 2-3 modern boosted cars running superchargers anymore, most are high end sport/super cars.

-A small, responsive turbocharger setup will make a smaller engine feel bigger. Size it right, and you won't have noticeable lag. Example that comes to my mind is the later Z31 turbo 300zx. They spooled so fast, it felt like you were driving a small displacement V8.

To play devil's advocate here, a smaller ball bearing turbo would grant near instant spool over a nice rpm range, and still provide that extra "oomph". :evildeal:
 

Poodles

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To play devil's advocate here, a smaller ball bearing turbo would grant near instant spool over a nice rpm range, and still provide that extra "oomph". :evildeal:
Modern turbos have far better characteristics than the turbos most of us are used to. Hell, throw in modern variable vain technology and it's even better (look at the porsche 911).
 

te72

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Poo, I'd love to be able to run a VGT, but controlling them seems the difficult part. There was a brand (Aerocharger?) that seemed to be along those lines. Really neat setups, but they were more focused for snowmobiles.
 

Orion ZyGarian

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I'm doing the next best thing, since there hasnt been a good solid reliable aftermarket variable vane turbo: EFR turbo, twin scroll, and a quick spool valve!
 

Poodles

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Yep, lots of ways to do it.

- Quick-spool valve
- Antilag
- Honda's flapper style
- Porsche's moving veins
- diesels that slide a plate back and forth

Even without that, a modern designed turbo (turbine wheel, compressor wheel, housings, ball bearings, sized correctly) will spool like nobody's business and supply serious low end torque.

Hell, a properly sized turbo doesn't really have lag. If you have lag, it's called a transmission...downshift.
 

Orion ZyGarian

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Yep, lots of ways to do it.

- Quick-spool valve
- Antilag
- Honda's flapper style
- Porsche's moving veins
- diesels that slide a plate back and forth

Even without that, a modern designed turbo (turbine wheel, compressor wheel, housings, ball bearings, sized correctly) will spool like nobody's business and supply serious low end torque.

Hell, a properly sized turbo doesn't really have lag. If you have lag, it's called a transmission...downshift.
This guy knows whats up. It's not the 80s anymore...in 30 years, there has been massive leaps and bounds made in turbo technology. Heck, in just the past 5 years there have been. I dont imagine there to be massive improvements (like billet compressor wheels have been) to happen again in the near future, unless VGTs or foil bearings become feasible, but engineers will find a way!
 

Poodles

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Look at the original 911's for example. The term "slow in fast out" was made for them because the turbos weren't progressive in their power delivery...
 

ianstaley

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I have to admit guy's I liked this statement best "If you have lag, it's called a transmission... down shift." the biggest point I was trying to look at was doing as little as possible to the bottom end of the engine other than regrind ect. By using turbo pistons I would be reducing the compression a bit, however, so to hear with a supercharger that would be a backwards step. So right now still thinking about the future. I do realise that a modern Turbo is nothing like the KKK that I had fitted to the beamer. So that may still be the best way. Need to check out the net for the differences in the blocks. Thanks all .....