Brian Crower 7M cams and ignition timing issue

amichie

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#1
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Hey

I have just fitted a set of brian crower stage 2 cams to my 7MGE and now I cant get enough static ignition advance before I hit the end of the adjustment range. Max advance at idle I can get is about 5 deg BTDC.

I have tried popping the dizzy out and advancing it by one tooth on the drive gear but this gave way too much advance.

Anybody else tried these cams out and had similar issues??

I may just file out the slot to get about another 10 degrees advance.

Factory setting is 10 deg BTDC and I have found it runs well with upto 15 deg BTDC on premium gas.
 

IJ.

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#2
Interesting sounds like someone got the phasing on the Helical gear a little off during production.

Would like to hear from anyone else using these cams to see if this is just an isolated case.

If needs be you can pull the CPS apart and rephase the Reluctors to suit getting your full range of adjustment back again.
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#3
IJ. said:
Interesting sounds like someone got the phasing on the Helical gear a little off during production.

Would like to hear from anyone else using these cams to see if this is just an isolated case.

If needs be you can pull the CPS apart and rephase the Reluctors to suit getting your full range of adjustment back again.
No CPS on a NA. Check your timing gears at marks, #1 at TDC, rotor pointing at # 1 on the distributor, and the crank mark at "o". Sounds like something is still out.
Make sure you adjust the timing belt right according to the TSRM.
 

IJ.

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#4
AJ: It can still be rephased as the reluctors are just pressed onto the shaft the same as the CPS (I used to trigger a standalone using a modded NA Distributor)
 

amichie

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#5
AJ'S 88NA said:
No CPS on a NA. Check your timing gears at marks, #1 at TDC, rotor pointing at # 1 on the distributor, and the crank mark at "o". Sounds like something is still out.
Make sure you adjust the timing belt right according to the TSRM.
Done this and double checked a few times now.

I also think the drive gear is out of phase.

I think of all these cams that have been sold nearly all are still sitting in boxes and have not been tried.
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#6
IJ. said:
AJ: It can still be rephased as the reluctors are just pressed onto the shaft the same as the CPS (I used to trigger a standalone using a modded NA Distributor)
O.K. I thought I had read that somewere, just that he didn't say he had done that.
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#7
amichie said:
Done this and double checked a few times now.

I also think the drive gear is out of phase.

I think of all these cams that have been sold nearly all are still sitting in boxes and have not been tried.
It seems that if the drive gear was off it would have a hard time turning without causing some damage?
I see alot of questions asked about these cams, but few responses? Maybe alot of them are still sitting in their boxes.

Am I missing something? This thread was moved from the General section, to the GTE section and he says it's a GE?
 
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amichie

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#8
AJ'S 88NA said:
It seems that if the drive gear was off it would have a hard time turning without causing some damage?
I see alot of questions asked about these cams, but few responses? Maybe alot of them are still sitting in their boxes.

Am I missing something? This thread was moved from the General section, to the GTE section and he says it's a GE?
Yes it was moved by the moderator and yes it is a GE (non turbo)

Here is an update.

I filed out the slot a little and now I have enough static advance for general driving.

Idle is crap and it regularly stalls. I might have to tweak the cam timing a little as there must be too much overlap for steady idle.

I'm guessing that advancing the exhaust cam slightly might be the way to go since that will improve both the static ignition advance and reduce the overlap slightly.

Having fun anyway.
 

IJ.

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#9
AJ: Phasing as in where a tooth on the Cam is in relation to the middle hole on the front of the Cam.

Move that a few degrees and you run out of travel in the Distributor/CPS adjustment slot before you get the correct ignition timing.
 

amichie

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#10
IJ. said:
AJ: Phasing as in where a tooth on the Cam is in relation to the middle hole on the front of the Cam.

Move that a few degrees and you run out of travel in the Distributor/CPS adjustment slot before you get the correct ignition timing.

100% agreed.

Can I ask where in Aus you are roughly??
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#12
amichie said:
Yes it was moved by the moderator and yes it is a GE (non turbo)

Here is an update.

I filed out the slot a little and now I have enough static advance for general driving.

Idle is crap and it regularly stalls. I might have to tweak the cam timing a little as there must be too much overlap for steady idle.

I'm guessing that advancing the exhaust cam slightly might be the way to go since that will improve both the static ignition advance and reduce the overlap slightly.

Having fun anyway.
I take it you have adj. cam gears? Do you have any type of AFR adjustment? Just curious if you can get it running well enought without some sort of piggyback(i.e. Apexi, etc.) When I installed my cams it was with other mods, bored, stroked, etc., and I had to install a Apexi II to get it to run decient. It would run OK, just wouldn't run GOOD. I also had problems with idle.

I still don't understand why the thread was moved from Gen Diss., to GTE when you have a GE? Are you going GE-T.

Also thanks for the lesson IJ.
 

amichie

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#13
AJ'S 88NA said:
I take it you have adj. cam gears? Do you have any type of AFR adjustment? Just curious if you can get it running well enought without some sort of piggyback(i.e. Apexi, etc.) When I installed my cams it was with other mods, bored, stroked, etc., and I had to install a Apexi II to get it to run decient. It would run OK, just wouldn't run GOOD. I also had problems with idle.

I still don't understand why the thread was moved from Gen Diss., to GTE when you have a GE? Are you going GE-T.

Also thanks for the lesson IJ.

I don't know why it was moved by the moderator and I have no plans to go turbo. The moderator did send me a very polite PM saying it was being moved and I'm not that fussed about it.

Oh and I have only one 5 bolt adjustable cam gear and one factory vernier gear. I think I will try reduced overlap with my 5 bolt gear on the intake cam and if that improves idle then I will remove the exhaust cam gear and advance it by 6 crank degrees.
 

IJ.

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#14
AJ: Very welcome I learned all about it when I made my own billet cam for my old 3.4L Toyota V8 way back when :)

No idea why Duane moved it but it's back where it's meant to be now ;)
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#15
IJ. said:
AJ: Very welcome I learned all about it when I made my own billet cam for my old 3.4L Toyota V8 way back when :)

No idea why Duane moved it but it's back where it's meant to be now ;)
Is there anything you haven't made?:biglaugh: Except "baby buggy rubber bumpers"

Amichie: Interested to see if you can get it to run well enough without fuel control and just timing. Please keep us posted.
 

amichie

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#17
AJ'S 88NA said:
Is there anything you haven't made?:biglaugh: Except "baby buggy rubber bumpers"

Amichie: Interested to see if you can get it to run well enough without fuel control and just timing. Please keep us posted.

It seems to me that degreeing of the cams is required.

The fact that the ignition timing was retarded so much and that the idle is so bad suggests to me that there is a lot of static retard on the exhaust cam.

I assumed the dowel pin holes would be set up so that if you use the middle pin hole on both the cam and the wheel then the timing wold start off in a neutral position. I will try and do some kind of check on valve opening and closing angles to try and figure out if the cams are biased one way or the other.
 

amichie

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#19
IJ. said:
Degree them per the timing tag so you have a baseline 0 point then go from there (sorry didn't realise you hadn't degreed yet)

Why the XXXX wouldn't they do it from the factory. If toyota can do it then Brian Crower should be able to.

They did supply a little timing card. A few pics below





 

IJ.

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#20
There are a bunch of variables that will affect the Cam's true 0 point such as ANY machine work done on the block or head, Belt stretch, Pully wear, Head Gasket thickness and so on.

This is why they give you the "220@50 thou" Spec so you can degree them in and when your degree wheel says 220@50 thou you look at the Cam pully and this will be YOUR motor's true 0.

From memory 1mm difference is around 2>3 degrees.
 

amichie

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#21
IJ. said:
There are a bunch of variables that will affect the Cam's true 0 point such as ANY machine work done on the block or head, Belt stretch, Pully wear, Head Gasket thickness and so on.

This is why they give you the "220@50 thou" Spec so you can degree them in and when your degree wheel says 220@50 thou you look at the Cam pully and this will be YOUR motor's true 0.

From memory 1mm difference is around 2>3 degrees.

Thanks Ian

My motor has had atleast 2 head shaves and one decking of the block when I rebuilt it earlier this year. These were all absolute minimum though at my request. Shaving head or block or gasket thickness does give cam retard.

It also has just an oem style ACL head gasket with ARP studs for a bit of piece of mind.

Just a little update. I tried retarding the inlet cam this morning about 5 degrees to reduce valve overlap since my adjustable wheel is on the inlet cam. And it started and idled no problems. Looks like this weekend will be spent accurately degreeing the cams.

BTW Ian the front crank pulley on the cressida 7mge appears to be solid and not have any rubber damper. So as long as the drive key is healthy my TDC timing marks should be OK don't you think.

Andrew.
 

IJ.

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#22
Andrew: The Cressida damper is still a damper it just has a big weight pressed into it so it's worth check for true TDC before you start on the Cams.

You'll also need to verify ignition timing once the Cam timing is done.
 

amichie

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#23
OK will do.

Unfortunately I must now go to work ARGGGGHHH.

I will try and accuratley degree the cam over the weekend.

BTW did you have a look at the little timing chart?? Does it give you any feeling for the cam timing. It seems to be pretty mild to me.
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#25
It looks like the BC's are close to the hard weld regrinds I have, 322 and 218. I don't have Adj. cam gears though, and was told that they wouldn't have to be degreed in. Was I misled? I just lined up the cam gears and it started right up.
I agree with IJ as far as the "punchy midrange". They really made a difference 3k to 7k which is were I wanted the power.
 

amichie

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#26
Just thinking out load here but I should be able to check the intake opening and exhaust closing events without a fancy degree wheel since they both occur so close to top dead centre on the non firing cycle. Atleast according to the little timing chart anyway.

I have accurately set all the clearances and I have decent digital vernier caliper that I could use to determine the 50 thou lift points.
 

IJ.

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#27
Measure the circumference of the Damper divide by 360 then multiply this by 220.

Take a tape measure using TDC as 0 then mark where 220 degrees is on the damper this needs to coincide with 50 thou lift ;)
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#28
I was checking the BC website and the Stage 2 are suppose to be "plug and play"? Should you have to degree them in?
 

amichie

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#29
AJ'S 88NA said:
I was checking the BC website and the Stage 2 are suppose to be "plug and play"? Should you have to degree them in?

Update

I have checked my TDC mark on the front crank pulley and it appears to be correct. I have made a simple check of the valve timing events and they are also as per the little timing card.

I have compared the BC exhaust cam with both a stock NA cam and a stock Turbo cam and the distributor drive gear is retarded on the BC cam by about 10-20 crank degrees.

I am borrowing a mate's cam degreeing set up on the weekend to set the cams up properly. I will also put the cressida intake plenum back on since it makes access to the cams easier than the supra style Y pipe ACIS intake that I have been using for the last 6 months.

I emailed Brian Crower with a few issues and asked if they have had any other feedback on these cams. Short version of the answer is they have sold around 400 pairs and not heard anything about ignition timing problems. They also reported a customer who fitted these cams to an NA engine and gained 20 hp.

I will keep you posted.
 

IJ.

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#30
AJ'S 88NA said:
I was checking the BC website and the Stage 2 are suppose to be "plug and play"? Should you have to degree them in?
Degreeing is only really making sure you have a known 0 point to start tuning due to the variables I listed a few posts back.

In this case it will help verify that the Helical gear has been indexed incorrectly to the Pin holes in the Camshaft.
 

upgradedsupra

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#31
IJ. said:
AJ: Very welcome I learned all about it when I made my own billet cam for my old 3.4L Toyota V8 way back when :)

No idea why Duane moved it but it's back where it's meant to be now ;)
After I moved it I remembered that it was a GE but didn't move it again. This is more of a Tech section discussion not general. It can work here too I guess.

Duane
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#33
IJ. said:
Degreeing is only really making sure you have a known 0 point to start tuning due to the variables I listed a few posts back.

In this case it will help verify that the Helical gear has been indexed incorrectly to the Pin holes in the Camshaft.
As always IJ you are a wealth of info.

So basically all cams should be degreed to ckeck everything as far as lining up?
Is the Helical moveable on the end of the distributor?
How is Amichie going to correct? If the cams gears have to be moved and don't line up with the "hash marks" on the rear timing cover? Just reference the new marks?
 

IJ.

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#34
AJ: It's more subtle than just lining up hash marks, because the Gear on the Cam isn't where it's meant to be the Reluctor teeth are out of phase so you end up not being able to get the Ign timing set within it's correct range.

He has the option I outlined earlier of pressing the Reluctors off and then back on in the correct position or if indeed it's the Cam gear in the wrong place I'd be returning it for replacement.
 

cuel

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#35
Most definitely hope that this is a one time manufacturing defect. I ordered a set Sat., and should be getting them any time now...
 

AJ'S 88NA

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#36
cuel said:
Most definitely hope that this is a one time manufacturing defect. I ordered a set Sat., and should be getting them any time now...
I thought you posted that somewere and I was thinking about you when I read this thread.

IJ: Yeah I understood about the cams gears being off and having to change the dis. gear, I guess what I was getting at was to correct the cam gear being off the the "hash marks" would be off still from the stock location. Would you just have to mark the timing cover for future reference?
PITA to have to change the cam out again, but I agree with sending them back.
 

amichie

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#37
Progress update

I have refiited the cresssida intake to allow easier access to cams etc.

I removed the exhaust cam drive wheel and advanced it by 3 cam degrees.
Started off with the inlet cam set at zero. Checked static ignition advance and I had about 13 deg BTDC at 700rpm with the te1 to e1 shorted.

Started OK but pretty dissappointing performance. Nothing down low at all, seemed OK when the revs built up.

Advanced the inlet cam by about 3 cam degrees. Low down pick up improved and power above 4000rpm was good.

Advanced the inlet cam to about 5 cam degrees advance and low end and top end both improved dramatically.

Wife came home from work and now the fun is over.


Tomorrow I will try a little more tweaking. I can now get upto about 18 degrees static ignition advance so this should be enough.

I really need two adjustable cam wheels but I will have to make do with one at this point.
 

7M-fanatic

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#38
amichie said:
----

Anybody else tried these cams out and had similar issues??
Well, I never got as far as putting the things in.
My set looked like crap,
and the intake cam's front bearing journal had an oil grove from hell !!
Where the stock cams, and all my other aftermarket cams (HKS, TODA)
have a 3.5mm wide oil grove, the BC intake had an 8mm wide grove.
This left very little actual bearing surface on the cam that has the most downward force on it.
The exhaust cam was fine (except for the over-all finish).
I called BC, and he said all their cams were the same,
and if I didn't like it, send them back.
(I guess the exhaust cam,
that had the normal grove width was a mistake then??)
Anyway, he didn't want to admit that there was a problem,
and made no offer to just replace just the intake cam.
So they were re-packed, and sent back.
I now have a set of good used TODAs going in the head.

You might try an Apex S-ITC, with one of those you can dial the timing up to +/- 15 degrees.
 

amichie

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#40
IJ. Any thoughts on why it seems I need to run heaps of advance on both intake and exhaust to get these things running well?? 3 cam degrees on the exhaust and 4.5 cam degrees on the intake.

I'm going to do a full cam degreeing over the next week as I have borrowed the necessary gear off a mate. I will also be able to take pics of anything of interest. I will try and get a pic of the dizzy drive gear on the BC cam and also a stock cam.