AR5 Trans Take Two: The Solstice Solution

limequat

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#1
Some of you may remember us talking about AR5 transmissions. The AR5 is the latest Aisin design based heavily on the R154. The case is essentially the same and bellhousings interchange. The AR5 is available in a variety of currrent product and offers triple cone synchros on first through third gear. Plus they can be had for the cost of a R154 rebuild.

So I set out to further the community by figuring out an AR5 swap. I found an example out of a 1998 Isuzu Trooper. I was hoping that I coulds swap the tailhousing with the Supra and have a bolt-in solution. The tailhousing did bolt up, however the output shafts are completely different lengths. Similarly the Isuzu had a weird input shaft that would have complicated the swap. I tabled the Isuzu trans.

Later, I found an Solstice trans on eBay for $600, brand new. This is also an Ar5, but it obviously 2WD, so I don't have the output shaft problem that I had with the Isuzu.

Here's a shot with the Toyota bellhousing already attached. Cool.
Also, it has the Toyota shift arm attached. Solstices (Solstii?) come with a "factory short throw" shifter that is set back about 8 inches.
 

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limequat

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#2
The Solstice AR5 comes with a normal GM input shaft. That requires a 15mm ID pilot bearing with a 32mm OD. I don't know of any vehicle that uses that size stock. Fortunately, there is nothing special about pilot bearings and you can order whatever you need out of McMaster-Carr as long as it is double flanged, double sealed.

Pilot bearings are easily replaced by packing the crank side with grease then hammering a dowel or socket through the center. Then just tap in the new bearing with an appropriately sized socket.
 

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hottscennessey

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#3
Sounds awesome.. but dumb it down for me a little.. this is good cost wise.. obviously. What does it do for durability and performance?
 

limequat

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#4
hottscennessey said:
Sounds awesome.. but dumb it down for me a little.. this is good cost wise.. obviously. What does it do for durability and performance?
This is the great unknown. There were some discussions about whether or not it can handle the 7m's torque. The gears are likely smaller to accomodate the synchros. However, we have since learned that the AR5 will be used the Solstice and Sky turbos. These cars are rated at 260 ft-lbs. So it will stand up to at least a stock Supra, we'll have to see what it can do from there.

Performance should be largely unaffected. The gear ratios are spaced more widely than the R154, so there is a danger that the 7M could fall out of it's power band between shifts.
 

limequat

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#5
Clutch selection is as simple as finding the GM vehicle with the closest diameter to the stock supra disk.
The disk on the right is a Spec II unit. On the left is a disk for a Chevy S-10 with a 2.2. At least it's a Centerforce. I don't think I'll have an issue as the diameters are nearly identical
 

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NashMan

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#6
what is the point of this for peoepl that can not shift worth a dame streching out gears that can be doen with the diff alone

but this is somehting diffetn so you got to try it eh

i know of good way to find out if it's good tranny is it heaver then stock r154
 

MDCmotorsports

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#7
Lime: Great to hear you finally got this working again! I would love to see this in a working car and get some feedback on.

Keep up the great work!
 

gixxer750

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#8
Aisin AR transmission
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Aisin AR5 transmission)
Jump to: navigation, search

The AR-5 is a 5-speed manual transmission manufactured by Aisin. It is designed for longitudinal engine applications and can handle up to 225 ft·lbf (305 N·m) of torque.

General Motors used the AR-5 as RPO MA5.

Gear ratios:
1 2 3 4 5 R
3.75 2.26 1.37 1.00 0.73 3.67



Also... :

Toyota R transmission

Toyota Motor Corporation's R family is a family of 5-speed RWD/4WD transmissions built by Aisin-Warner. They share much in common (such as the bellhousing-to-body bolt patterns) with the General Motors AR-5 (titled MA-5 internally by GM), Jeep AX-15, NV3550, and Isuzu AR5 transmissions.
R150

A 2WD transmission found in many Toyota trucks.

Ratios:

* First Gear: 3.830:1
* Second Gear: 2.062:1
* Third Gear: 1.436:1
* Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
* Fifth Gear: 0.838:1



A 4
 

gixxer750

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Toyota Motor Corporation's R family is a family of 5-speed RWD/4WD transmissions built by Aisin-Warner. They share much in common (such as the bellhousing-to-body bolt patterns) with the General Motors AR-5 (titled MA-5 internally by GM), Jeep AX-15, NV3550, and Isuzu AR5 transmissions.
R150

A 2WD transmission found in many Toyota trucks.

Ratios:

* First Gear: 3.830:1
* Second Gear: 2.062:1
* Third Gear: 1.436:1
* Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
* Fifth Gear: 0.838:1

R150F

A 4WD transmission found in many Toyota trucks.

Ratios:

* First Gear: 3.830:1
* Second Gear: 2.062:1
* Third Gear: 1.436:1
* Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
* Fifth Gear: 0.838:1

R151F

A 4WD transmission found in many Toyota trucks.

Ratios:

* First Gear: 4.313:1
* Second Gear: 2.330:1
* Third Gear: 1.436:1
* Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
* Fifth Gear: 0.838:1

R154

This transmission is a robust 5-speed transmission found in the 1987-1992 MKIII Supra Turbo.

Ratios:

* First Gear: 3.250:1
* Second Gear: 1.955:1
* Third Gear: 1.310:1
* Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
* Fifth Gear: 0.753:1

See also

* Toyota Transmissions



So is this trans really an R154 base or an R150 based trans? Will it be able to take much power or abuse?
 
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#10
If it's a 26 spline GM Clutch Disc, you may also look into a clutch disc from a '93-'95 Chevy Camaro or Pontiac Firebird, equipped with the 3.4L motor.

That's a 9 11/16" 26 spline disc, and Spec makes a full line for that setup.
 

Yellow 13

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#12
The AR-5 is a 5-speed manual transmission manufactured by Aisin. It is designed for longitudinal engine applications and can handle up to 225 ft·lbf (305 N·m) of torque...


Is that wrong or is it just a really weak transmission?
 

T34418L3ONE

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#13
thats what the base model was, if its equipped in the turbo solistice and sky i would imagine they beefed up the syncros and bearings.
 

limequat

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#16
Doward said:
If it's a 26 spline GM Clutch Disc, you may also look into a clutch disc from a '93-'95 Chevy Camaro or Pontiac Firebird, equipped with the 3.4L motor.

That's a 9 11/16" 26 spline disc, and Spec makes a full line for that setup.
Yeah, I had almost ordered that clutch, but it is a hair too big. You could probably machine the flywheel to accept it...
 

Nick M

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#17
That .63 overdrive would give you approximately 2237 RPM in 5th at 70 mph. You would need about a .56 to get to 2000 RPM in 5th at 70. But I think with the displacement we have, you could be lugging the engine, and could end up in and out of boost at steady cruise. The .63 could work.

Even the .70 from my A340E is just over 2400 at 70, not bad at all. I get high 20 on the highway with cruise on a trip.
 

limequat

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#19
Yellow 13 said:
The AR-5 is a 5-speed manual transmission manufactured by Aisin. It is designed for longitudinal engine applications and can handle up to 225 ft·lbf (305 N·m) of torque...


Is that wrong or is it just a really weak transmission?
Transmissions are rated according to application, not capability. That just means that the highest rated car with an AR5 thus far produced 225 ft-lbs of torque.
 

limequat

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#21
The next piece of the puzzle is the front bearing retainer. The Supra retainer allows you to run the GTE pull-type clutch and provides a surface for the throwout bearing to slide on. Again, it's a direct bolt-on to the AR5 case. Thus concludes what it takes to bolt the AR5 to the 7M with the supra clutch.

Next is figuring out the shifter. As mentioned before, the Solstice has crazy mechanism to move the shifter back about 8 inches. This would put it in the glove box in a Supra. There are no off-the-shelf shifters that bolt to Aisin tailhousing and put the shifter in the normal location. A 2WD Colorado transmission may remedy this problem, but I think the shifter is too far forward. So I decided to mount the Supra shifter and housing to the Solstice tail.

First the tail has to come off so you can mount the R154 shift rod actuator thing. See the attachment.
 

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limequat

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#23
Next I had to cobble up a shifter housing using the Supra part and the Solstice base. This part allows me to use the bone-stock supra shifter in the exact location I want. Perfect.

At first I was concerned about using the Supra shifter as opposed the Solstice shifter. I think many of us have noticed the notchy feel of the R154. However, looking at the R154 shifter vs the AR5 shifter, I can say that it's not the shifter...it's the transmission! The R154 shifter is actually a very nice piece.

I can now shift the AR5 with the Supra shifter and it is like butter!
 

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limequat

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#24
IJ. said:
LQ: Wonder if it uses the same sintered metal thrust washer as the 154?
Have we determined that it's sintered metal in the R154? I'll let you know if I break mine :)
 
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#27
Very nice! +1 for you! I'm a little concerned about the 225 lbs/ft tq limit, though.

Yes, a .63 5th would be very nice, imho. The 7M has a lot more torque than most 6's of its same size. I ran around with a 3.42 rear and a .73, for a 2.49 - and I found that when I cruise on the highway, I was spinning more RPM than I like. ;) A .63 on my 3.91s would be ideal, for me.
 

Jeff Lange

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#28
The R154 has a 254ft-lb limit. 225ft-lb isn't that far off, but it's a somewhat pointless number anyways, since it has no bearing on what the transmission can actually take.
 

miekedmr

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#29
Jeff Lange said:
The R154 has a 254ft-lb limit. 225ft-lb isn't that far off, but it's a somewhat pointless number anyways, since it has no bearing on what the transmission can actually take.
That's probobly the amount of torque that they expect the transmission to handle without breaking during its entire expected lifespan, rather than newly built with fresh oil.

BTW... your contribution is greatly appreciated, lime
 

limequat

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#30
supradan22 said:
OMG Limequat your fast work is very impressive when do u belive its gona be on a supra running?
Heh, I wouldn't be documenting all this if I didn't already know the outcome.
 

limequat

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#31
miekedmr said:
That's probobly the amount of torque that they expect the transmission to handle without breaking during its entire expected lifespan, rather than newly built with fresh oil.

BTW... your contribution is greatly appreciated, lime
Thanks, glad to be of service.
Jeff, is correct. The rating has no relevence to the actual capability of the trans. It is merely the most powerful engine that it has been mated to thus far. We will see that number jump to 260 ft-lbs when the turbo Solstice is introduced.
 

limequat

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#32
I wanted to post on using the Supra tailshaft, though I didn't go that way.

Using the supra housing would (pontentially) allow you to retain a stock speedo, abs, and remove the need for the custom shifter housing.
I spent many hours grinding, filing, and clearancing the supra housing to get it to fit over the Ar5 gear. It was all for not, as there is simply no way to get the tailshaft support bearing in the correct spot. Which is a bummer, because the tailhousing has to come off anyway to get that shifter lever thing on.

Furthmore, I'm left with only a passive sensor and mechanical speedo drive. Not to say it couldn't be machined, but I'd prefer to build a circuit than a custom speedo drive gear. I've purchased an electric speedo out a camry. I'll try to hack it into th supra cluster when the time comes.
 

Greg55_99

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#33
Good stuff for sure. Correct me if I'm wrong however. Does the AR5 have an aluminum sandwich plate as opposed to the R154's cast iron one? Also, what is the exact length of the input shaft? Have you had them together to verify it doesn't bind on the crank? Lots of questions!

Greg
 

limequat

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#34
Greg55_99 said:
Good stuff for sure. Correct me if I'm wrong however. Does the AR5 have an aluminum sandwich plate as opposed to the R154's cast iron one? Also, what is the exact length of the input shaft? Have you had them together to verify it doesn't bind on the crank? Lots of questions!

Greg
Hi Greg, glad to see you found my celebration.
You know, I'm not sure what the sandwich plate is made of (is that what it's really called?). I just noticed that it isn't rusted. I'll check it out tonight.

I took measurements of the input shaft but forgot where I put them. I'll see if I can dig that up too. I do remember that it was VERY close to bottoming out in the crank. The Solstice input is ~1/4 longer than the supra, but the splines are in roughly the same location.

However, I do have the entire front end together and nothing binds: 7M Crank => 32 x 15 pilot bearing => Solstice Input => S10 Clutch => Supra Clutch cover.
 

limequat

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#35
OK, with the front end together, and the shifter in, the last piece of the puzzle before test is the driveshaft.

The solstice uses a funky flange bolted to the output shaft, similar to the output of a 4x4's transfer case. That bolts to a CV joint, which is in turn friction welded to a small diameter (about 2") mild steel shaft. The Solstice pinion flange is a triangular 3-bolt design with a rubber damper between it and the driveshaft.

I got quotes for welding the supra pinion flange to the Solstice shaft: Anywhere from $400 to $1200. Yeah, that's a little rediculous for a mild steel shaft.

Removing flange from the output shaft reveals standard GM splines, but only about 1.5" deep. I decided to go with a regular slip-yoke even though the engagement is questionable. This is another problem that would have been solved by using the Colorado trans.
 

drjonez

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#36
have you talked to the driveshaft shop in troy (can't remember the name now...)? they should be able to make you a shaft for the price of those quotes...
 

limequat

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#37
drjonez said:
have you talked to the driveshaft shop in troy (can't remember the name now...)? they should be able to make you a shaft for the price of those quotes...
Yeah, I think it was Dynatech. They're the ones that gave me the $800 quote, "1200 if I want it balanced".
 

drjonez

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#38
WHAT?!?!?!? you're kidding? everyone i know that deals w/them says they're cheap....that sux.

heck, i've got a welder, have @ it! ;)
 

limequat

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#39
drjonez said:
WHAT?!?!?!? you're kidding? everyone i know that deals w/them says they're cheap....that sux.

heck, i've got a welder, have @ it! ;)
Heh, you don't know how seriously I considered busting out the MIG :)

I wound up getting a smiple Chevy slipe yoke that fit the same diameter as the stock Supra pinion flange. Cost me $275 at some hole-in-the-wall in Livonia. Still way too much for a stupid shaft, but better than $1200.

Get this: Those jokers at Dynatech, saw me come in with a 2006 Solstice shaft and figured I was GM! Probably thought they could get an extra $500 markup if it was on Lutz's dime.
 

Greg55_99

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#40
Well Lime, since you've opened up this can of worms, how would you evaluate the stock shifter location of the the AR5 out of the Solstice with the shifter location of the Soarer R154?





Would you say they're pretty close?

Greg