A/C upgrades (R134) - Operation Chill

Satan

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#43
Received it today and it looks like the real-deal. Won't have any side-by-side pics, until I replace the old one. Bracketry looks right. Anyone else have pics/measurements to compare?





 
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mirage83

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#44
Looks like a tight, professional build. Let us know how the fit is once you get to that point. According to your results (function and fit) I might be joining in on the group buy.
 

3p141592654

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#45
No idea... but it would make sense since the OEMs changed to the parallel flow for R134.
R-134a has a critical temp of 214F vs 234F of R-12. With less efficient condensers, portions of the condenser may hit 214F in low flow stop-n-go conditions, at which point the R-134a will not liquefy at all or very little ... leading to poor performance in stopped traffic/low air flow periods.

R-134a needs a much larger/efficient condenser due to this, and is best located away from the radiator (not always possible), and beefed up radiator fans to suck in more cool air than for R-12.

Bottom line, the improved condenser should be fine for R12.
 

Satan

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#47
^^It is. Once I install it I can tell you about fitment and temp differences.

I will try to install it very soon and let ya know if it's worth buying sooner at the retail price, instead of waiting for a group buy.

Not having much luck setting anything up with the company. Product looks good, but they've not seemed eager for a large order.
 

CyFi6

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#48
Wow that's great! How much did you pay for it? (sorry im too lazy to read back over all the posts again, if you dont like it when people are lazy you dont have to tell me)
 

Satan

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#50
Basically, $155, plus shipping. Took about a week to make, but I'm guessing that they can do more of them easier/faster, now that they've done this one.

I will try 1 more call to the salesperson today and see if we can get some volume pricing.

I ordered 2 dryer/receivers from http://www.ackits.com/ for about $35 shipped. Otherwise, you can get 'em for about $35 each at a local parts store. This place also has a good A/C forum and other components/kits for cheap (expansion valves, evaporators, flush kits, inline filters, etc).

So, if no volume discount is available and this works as I hope it should, it should not exceed about $180 for the condensor and dryer/rcvr.

Calling the sale rep again... will let ya know.
 

figgie

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#51
hey

$180 for a r134 specific condensor and dryer???

Sounds like a winner to me! Of course the river cryers would say otherwise that is not expensive at all! Especially if it makes the r134 system work more efficiently!
 

mirage83

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#53
I'm going to presume since nobody has mentioned it that the stock evap core wouldn't be any problem or need upgrading in order to use 134 efficiently?
 

Satan

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#54
According to the A/C forums and technical folks there, the condensor is the #1 thing that will improve the "coldness" of R134 in a retrofitted system.

So, I am going to take temp readings before/after and see how the condensor does, as the only major change made.

I would not recommend that anyone make the purchase yet, until it's kinda proven first. I agree that if it works as I'm expecting, it will be as cold (or better) than w/R12. That being the case, the price would be well worth it.
 

CyFi6

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#55
I would love to have an r134a system that works just as well, mostly because of the availability and price of the refrigerant itself. I hope you get good results out of this! I dont doubt that you will.

EDIT: BTW, those guys over at AC Kits are great. They are actually local to me and i have done some small buisness with them and they are very nice and helpful people both at the store and on the boards.
 

figgie

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#56
According to the A/C forums and technical folks there, the condensor is the #1 thing that will improve the "coldness" of R134 in a retrofitted system.

So, I am going to take temp readings before/after and see how the condensor does, as the only major change made.

I would not recommend that anyone make the purchase yet, until it's kinda proven first. I agree that if it works as I'm expecting, it will be as cold (or better) than w/R12. That being the case, the price would be well worth it.

Satan

you will not see any temp difference at the vents.

Reason being, the expansion valve. Expansion valve keeps my R134 hovering at 40 degreee outlet temprature.. I am trying to find the TTB on the testing......

BTW

for the retrofit folks
650g of R134a per
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/TechTips/R134a.aspx
 

CyFi6

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#57
40 Degree vent temps are pretty good. The problem most of us have with R134a is the temps climb above that when in a low speed or idle state.
 

figgie

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#58
40 Degree vent temps are pretty good. The problem most of us have with R134a is the temps climb above that when in a low speed or idle state.

Umm

this was in florida during a 90 degree day. At zero MPH ;) I still remember as it was hotter than dog shit that day. Mechanical fan and retro fitted dual pullers (instead of the single puller). no pusher upfront like the 89-92 supra (i am 87).
 

Satan

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#59
Hey Figgie,
Yours is the exception. I am not getting 40 degrees right now and I don't necessarily think others w/R134 are either (from what I've seen here). I think youmentioned that you replaced the condensor w/a stock one when you retrofitted. The condensors do get gunk in 'em and I think that the efficiency is very improved when you replace them after 14+ years, but with a PFC it should be even better (w/R134).

If my car (black MKIII) bakes in the Sun for a couple of hours, it is VERY hard to get cool enough to not sweat (too much). Even in the MKIV and our Mazda, bioth black, the temp from the vents is sufficient to make you comfortable very quickly.

When I had R12 and in Florida, I'd have ice crystals forming on my vents. If I can get 40 degrees again, I'll be extremely pleased with this change!

Still not return call from the sales manager for a volume order. Still waiting.
 

Zumtizzle

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#61

jetjock

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#62
The design as a heat exchanger is more efficient. Period. Doesn't matter what the fluid is. Whether that efficiency is needed in a properly designed R12 system is debatable. My experience says it isn't. Something can be "inefficient" and still work pretty well you know. Look at tube and fin oil coolers versus stacked plate for example. However if you're asking what I would buy if the stock serpentine in my R12 system blew up tomorrow I'd say Satan would be hearing from me. Not because I need it (my system on low fan speed blows in the high 30s) but because efficiency is nice to have in any process. Doesn't mean it's needed for the process to work though.

Retrofits are another story. You guys make it sound as if this is something new and untested. It's well known PF can improve the performance of 134 in a refitted R12 system. As pointed out people in the MVAC biz know it and I've mentioned it on several occasions. And while it's true the TXV controls superheat there are other things that can effect evap and vent temperature. That said, since a 10 degree drop across an evap is typical, anything less than 42 is gravy.

And fwiw my 87 came new with the pusher fan. I was under the impression all turbo models had it while N/A's didn't...
 

Zumtizzle

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#63
Thanks JJ, that's what i figured. ;)

As for the front fan.
My Dads 87 Turbo had it as well, as all Turbos. (But my Early 87 turbo with a door stamp of August 1986 didn't have it or any of the associated sensors.)

I think all 89+ N/A's have the front fan.
 

jetjock

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#64
Fair nuff. I'm not totally up on the fan thing, just that the N/As I've seen didn't have one. Now that you mention it they were all early years though.

Btw run-of-the-mill PAG sucks. Scarily hygroscopic. Use double end capped PAG or ester. I use TSI Supercool but there are others...
 

Poodles

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#66
The pusher fans are inconsistant on what they're installed on. SOme hot climates got them, autos got them, ect...

My 89 doesn't have one.
 

figgie

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#69
Satan. Only thing changed in my car was the refrigarant, oil, and dryer canister. Nothing else. I have a robinair vacuum pump 6cfm rating that helped in evacuating the system.

Good luck with this though. I will be watching intently! :)
 

figgie

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#70
On the front pusher fan....

I have owner my car since 1994. it is an 87. It never had the fan back then. Unless the previous owner took it off... but when I bought the car with 42k miles on it........ Doubt that the owner did anything save drive it gingerly.......
 

BlackDevilSupra

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#71
Which oil lubricant did you use, PAG or ester? Viscosity?
Did you pull the compressor to completely drain all the reserved R12 lubricant, or did you just simply evacuated the system?
Thanks for the info

Satan. Only thing changed in my car was the refrigarant, oil, and dryer canister. Nothing else. I have a robinair vacuum pump 6cfm rating that helped in evacuating the system.

Good luck with this though. I will be watching intently! :)
 

figgie

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#72
Which oil lubricant did you use, PAG or ester? Viscosity?
Did you pull the compressor to completely drain all the reserved R12 lubricant, or did you just simply evacuated the system?
Thanks for the info

bah

you had to ask.. lol :cry:

That was so long ago that I don't remember that type of specifics (after all I did it once!).

Now the other part, new dryer, put the oil in it, Took the connections off the compressor after the flush and dry, and added oil there. Buttoned up everything and proceeded to evacuate the system. At that point I had access to a, umm , now I don't remember the name.. it measure microns pulled.... I think. Grr bad memory today.
 

Satan

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#73
41.8 degrees (F) !!!!!

Took about 3 days to get things installed and recharged. I also installed the 2JZ N/A fan and an aluminum radiator (some oil line fittings and a few other things). After about 15-20 minutes of driving, temp reached 41.8F.

I am very happy with the results. I used 2.15 12oz cans and even forgot to close the low-side, when switching the 1st can. Outside temps are about 75 degrees right now, we'll have to see at 85 tomorrow, etc.

Condensor install notes & pics...

Very straightforward install. A couple of extra brackets that I did not use and some minor modifications...



#1 - There are a couple of rubber dampners on either side which look fubar, but still seem to hold the condensor securely.

#2 - There is a nut already welded on the stock bracket. I had to squeeze the fittings together and use a nut on the end of the bolt. I also put some rubber line stuff on the inside of the bracket to make sure that there's no metal-on-metal rubbing going on.








Fits well, but has a little extra room at the bottom...



Had to put some rubber line around this piece of the hardline, to avoid contact with a metal bracket




Good lateral fitment!



Some space left over, which I would have liked to be able to use...



I have the Auto-A/C pusher fan and had to bend this bracket, to fit it back on.

 

rmjsupra

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#74
Nice information man , you rock the house. Do you mind putting up a list of all the parts you used and where to purchase and maybe prices.. This is something I will most definately do when I do my JZ swap in a couple of months.

Great INFO!!!
 

tissimo

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#75
Nice. Where did you get the unit? Pm me if you want. I need to get a new condenser for my celica and interested in getting a R134 designed unit vs a stocker.
 

got_boosted

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#76
I put the A/C back into my 2JZ 91T with all stock components other than the Aristo compressor and a new reciever/drier unit. It blew REAL cold with R134a. I'll be doing the same thing with my new car and my new 2JZ and the same compressor.

Collin
 

Piratetip

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#79
Wait...you didn't pull a vacuum on the system, then fill?
I thought you wanted better performance. :3d_frown: