A/C upgrades (R134) - Operation Chill

Satan

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#1
Okay,
I'm tired of not being frozen in my MKIII, like when it had R12.

I am getting spare pieces of the A/C components together, so that we can have accurate dimensions/measurements for potential upgrades to the parts for our MKIIIs with R134, to make the air blow freezin' cold.

What do we need to do to increase the amount of R134 in our systems, to more-than-adequately kewl our MKIIIs (even in the hottest of climates)?

I am currently using an Aristo compressor, so I am sure that it's R134 compatible. I am more interested in increasing the size of the lines and related ports to allow more R134 volume, resulting in much better cooling.

A/C experts please chime in an tell us what needs to be done, so that we can figure out how to do it.

Summer is around the corner...
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

12/11/13 - Thread summary (from post #106) - Parallel flow condensor is the recommended upgrade/change

PURCHASING INFO!


The company is American Condensor. The person I've worked with for mine is - Adriana Miera adriana.miera@americancondenser.com

This what they got me (direct fit):
Part number P39293P (it fits all the 91 Toyota supra models including the turbo). Update 12/11/13 - part number changed from P39293P to 1039293, after American Condenser was bought by Vista Pro. Also referenced in another thread, to order from theacpartsonline (~$132US)... http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...ondensers-!!&p=1957548&viewfull=1#post1957548
 
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figgie

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#2
Something is wrong in your system. I run r134 sine 1997. Measured temp outlet = 40 degrees on a 92 degree day with 30% humidity as measured at the vent.
 

Satan

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#3
...Mine does not cool with the crispness that the 87T w/R12 did. It was the same w/my 90T w/R134. Could there have been something different 10+ years ago with the available freon or sumthin'?

I am thinking that there is probably 1 thing that we can improve/upgrade and be REALLY happy with (maybe 5+ degrees). The more time goes by, the more MKIIIs will be having to convert. Might as well make it better if we can.
 

SupraMan1987

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#5
My opinion is that not retrofitting it to R134 would make the biggest difference. Line size and all that crap will not have that much affect. Either get a shop to put R12 in it, take the 609 certification threw ASE so that you can buy your own R12, or buy something like Freeze 12 that the common person can buy. The system in our cars was designed for R12. Regardless of what the companies that sell the conversions say, in the case of refrigerant, what it is designed for is better. My car blows so cold that on particularly humid days I can see the water vapor freezing over coming out of my vents. That's no joke, I've measured temps of less than 30 degrees at times, which is right at evap core freeze-up temps.
 

Satan

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#7
Thing is because of R12 not being as readily available, we will all have to make the change at some point. What are those couple of things that can be done or prepared for, so that when you go R134, you are freezin'?

What's wrong with Freeze 12? Are there any measured comparisons out there of the types of freon and results produced for each (like the oil filter study)?
 

jetjock

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#8
Well, for a start it's 80% R-134. I thought you were trying to avoid that stuff? The real problem though is it's an azeotropic blend. That means although it'll blow cold your system's days will be numbered...
 

Satan

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#9
Not trying to avoid R134... Trying to make sure that I can get it to feel the same or better than when I was using R12.

Figuring we all try to improve our car's performance in most other areas, why not the A/C? If it's as simple as using the evaporator or condensor from another car, or making the lines larger, or using a different condensor, or something... then we can start to go down that path and get some feedback on the results. That way when someone else has to make the R134 change or has to replace an A/C component, they use the "better" part.

I have recently bought the guage set and have used the vacuum pump from Autozone, so servicing things will be easy enough. Just really more about not wanting to go thru a bunch of trial/error, if there's a known component that will improve the A/C's performance when using R134.
 

SupraMan1987

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#10
I wouldn't be fooling around with a gauge set and vacuum pump doing trial and error in your AC. EPA says that is a big no-no. Regardless of what refrigerant you are using if you vent it more than they feel is an acceptable loss you will get a 10K+ fine, per incident. Also, I would too stay away from freeze 12, but I am trying to suggest something for those that do not have the luxury of a 609 certification card such as myself and I'm sure several other members. R12 isn't becoming more scare. If anything, it is getting easier to find, and cheaper too. I'd bet money that your local O'Reileys has some, as part of their initial stock is 5 cans of it. All R12 that is evacuated from cars is recycled these days, we are down to very little to no loss of the stuff. While the number of cars using it is dwindling. I have seen it go from 40 dollars a can down to thirty in the last year or so. Trust me, stay with the R12. If you want to experiment with stuff, go ahead and get your 609 so you can do it the right way. The test is honestly cake to pass, and ASE offers it online for $15. That's the test, and all the material that will be covered on it.
 

Satan

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#11
That's what I was saying... I don't want to do the trial and error stuff. I want to know the improvements that can be made, to use R134. Still not looking to use R12, but use R134 "better."

I am using the Aristo's compressor (already made for 134). I am sure that others that do the 2J swap are doing the same. The wife's MKIV has R134 and is very cold, like I want.
 

grimreaper

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#12
A bolt in parallel flow condenser would make a lot of difference...
^ this is key. A complete flush along with removing EVRYTHING out of the car and putting new o-rings on. New dryer is needed if converting as well.


Figgie is one of the few that i have seen report such good performance with r-134 on a stock system.

JJ touched on it here: freeze 12 is a mix, when the lighter gas (usually the stuff that the oil chases around the system) leaks out (it will) the mineral oil that wont work with r-134a will sit and the compressor is toast. Im sure JJ can off load some technical info but thats about as basic as it gets ;).
 

Satan

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#13
I looked at some A/C forums and am thinking that a universal-fit parallel flow condensor may do the trick. Junk settles in there over time, so it's probably not a bad idea to replace it anyways.

There will likely be some fabbing of the lines' fittings necessary, but basically upgrading the condensor seems to be giving others the results I'd like. It'd be great if there was another Toyota that we could use the condensor from (providing it's a better condensor for r134). Can't beat plug-n-play.
 

Poodles

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#14
try contacting the company that made my condenser and seeing if they'll make a parallel flow version...

I can't be bothered since I already have the new condenser LOL

(info was in another current A/C thread)
 

Satan

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#16
try contacting the company that made my condenser and seeing if they'll make a parallel flow version...

I can't be bothered since I already have the new condenser LOL

(info was in another current A/C thread)
WOW! Many thanks... I've been doing alot of reading elsewhere and completely missed that thread. Sounds like the condensor is all I've got to worry 'bout (since I recently replaced compressor, dryer/receiver, expansion valve, and 1 of the lines).

There are plently of universal ones out there and in many cases, they offer steel braided lines and the necessary fittings. I dunno about all that yet and am still hopeful that I can find a parallel flow condensor in another Toyota that would work, with less work.
 

Poodles

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#17
When I get a chance I'll take pics of my bro's setup in his MKII, was a full conversion done at the dealer (custom everything...)
 

Satan

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#18
After many calls and email exchanges, I ordered a "stock replacement" parallel flow condensor today. I should have it by next week. I am a bit skeptical, since they said it would take a few days to manufacture, but had a part number ready, and seemed hesitatant with the price.

The person I talked to said she'd talked to the technicians and that they would do it. I also asked for her to re-confirm that it would be parallel flow (several times).

If ya'll can wait a week or so, I will be able to tell you how things look. The cost was $155 (before shipping). Well worth it, considering the pieces & fabbing that would have to take place to use one of the ~$90ish universal units.

I'd hate to have ya'll order one and it not be any good, so I don't want to post all that info yet. If you're REALLY in that much of a hurry, send me a PM for the info.

Stand-by!
 

Piratetip

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#19
So where are you mounting the extra condenser?
Hopefully not where it will feed the heat back into the 2nd one.
 

Piratetip

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#21
Gotcha.
Would be interesting to see some side by side shots of the two.
 

Satan

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#22
In addition to just replacing mine, I am completing a reseller agreement thing with the manufacturer. They said that there'd be significant discounts in doing so and buying in volume.

I have not even started making arrangements with the mods for an approved group buy yet, but am curious of how many of you would want a parallel flow condensor that would be an exact stock replacement? I dunno if they offer dryer/receivers, but will also see if I can get 'em at a significant discount. I paid ~$38 for the one I have now from a local parts store, but will have to replace it when I crack the system open again to replace the condensor. I did find 'em on another A/C supply site for about $15, if we need to get 'em elsewhere.

I'm hoping that we could easily get both items for less than the $155 I'm paying for the condensor alone and am hoping that the "deep-discount" they mentioned might make it less than $100.

The problem is, I have no pricing yet. Once I get them an estimate of how many we'd need, I can then let ya'll know what they say...

So, add your name to the list if you think you may want to do this (knowing that the price is not going to exceed $155 for the condensor anyways). Obviously, this is VERY early in the process, so please be understanding/flexible.

1. Satan (2 condensors and 2 dryer/receivers)
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
 

jetjock

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#23
No need here but my compliments on making the effort to do things right.

JJ touched on it here: freeze 12 is a mix, when the lighter gas (usually the stuff that the oil chases around the system) leaks out (it will) the mineral oil that wont work with r-134a will sit and the compressor is toast.
Exactly right. Good job.

I shouldn't mention this but there are refrigerant blends that claim to be performance replacements for 134. Course, that means systems converted from 12 to 134 can also use them. COOLTOP is one:

http://tinyurl.com/cmcnkk

It's a mixture of 40% 134 with the balance split between 125 and 152a. Although I have no personal experience with it I know a few people who claim the stuff works well. In any case be sure the heater valve is installed and working as even with R-12 coolant flow through the core can cost you around 10 degrees of AC goodness....
 

Zumtizzle

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#24
In addition to just replacing mine, I am completing a reseller agreement thing with the manufacturer. They said that there'd be significant discounts in doing so and buying in volume.

I have not even started making arrangements with the mods for an approved group buy yet, but am curious of how many of you would want a parallel flow condensor that would be an exact stock replacement? I dunno if they offer dryer/receivers, but will also see if I can get 'em at a significant discount. I paid ~$38 for the one I have now from a local parts store, but will have to replace it when I crack the system open again to replace the condensor. I did find 'em on another A/C supply site for about $15, if we need to get 'em elsewhere.

I'm hoping that we could easily get both items for less than the $155 I'm paying for the condensor alone and am hoping that the "deep-discount" they mentioned might make it less than $100.

The problem is, I have no pricing yet. Once I get them an estimate of how many we'd need, I can then let ya'll know what they say...

So, add your name to the list if you think you may want to do this (knowing that the price is not going to exceed $155 for the condensor anyways). Obviously, this is VERY early in the process, so please be understanding/flexible.

1. Satan (2 condensors and 2 dryer/receivers)
2. Zumtizzle 1 Condensor
3.
4.
5.
6.
 

Poodles

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#27
Did you go through the place that made mine?

If it is, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another, but I'm gonna wait until you put it on your car and see how the performance is.

Since the entire system is being resealed on mine, paying for R12 won't really be an issue to me...
 

CPT Furious

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#29
Looking forward to seeing how this works out as well. Now that I'm back to an area of higher heat and humidity, I want the A/C to blow ice cubes in traffic!

I get really cold air at freeway speeds, it's just when I'm slower in town that it's not doing as good as the R12.
 

Satan

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#31
I have a part number, but like I said... seemed almost "made up at the time."
-Just kinda iffy.



I am going to post pics when I go to change it out and make sure things fit like they should. Not trying to get committment, just trying to gauge interest. Do I order 10, 20, or 50?
 

Satan

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#33
Filled out a credit/reseller application today and still have to do more... Kind of a hassle really. I've offered to pay up front, but they still want credit/bank info (ain't gonna happen). Don't see enough interest from the forum yet to go thru the hassle, so am probably not gonna go through with buying a bunch, or revisit in August (when ppl change their minds). Have not posted this on SF yet, but may leave this for someone else who cares about a profit.

Hopefully I will be nice and COOL by that time!
 

Satan

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#35
I'll post the info, soon as I receive mine and know that it's an exact match/fit. I should have it very soon (no later than a couple of more days).

We are still working out the details for a large-volume order (providing that the price, fitment, and other factors are all good). Looks like they may now be okay with up-front-payment.
 

rmjsupra

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#37
After sitting in the heat, in Palm SPrings this weekend, ya I want some AC. Mine is stock at the momoent with 7M pump, but will be swapping the 1jz with aristo pump in July.

I am definately interested in this.
 

Satan

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#38
Why the hell wouldn't any company not be ok with upfront payment? PO or not, cash is cash and it always talks.
Agreed! I almost fell out of my seat when they said they'd not process the application because of the missing credit/bank data. I had already explained things to them before, but think we're on the same page now.

I won't let all of this be too much of an obstacle though. If the condensor I get is good-to-go and I'm still having a volume-purchase issue, I'll turn this over to an existing forum vendor who're probably more equipped for these types of dealings.
 

Poodles

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#39
Yeah, like I said, if you get better performance, I might be interested.

The only thing is, i might be going with R12 and I'm not sure a parallel flow condenser will work well with R12...