7MGTE Oil pressure system.

simond355

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#1
Yes i have tried read the forum but not found the answer i search.
Currently i have a good oil pressure about 55 psi at 3k rpm, 25 psi idle (both at hot temp).
New DM modified oil pump with AZ hardpipe, shimmed the oil pump aswell.
But the relief spring in the oil filter housing, is there any advantages of shimming it?
Will it cause it to run more oil through the cooler so my oil gets cooled even more? Or is it a dumb idea to shim it

Please explain me why its good idea or not!

Thx
 

suprarx7nut

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#2
I would ditch the pressure-based cooling system entirely before shimming it. It's a great, reliable system for power levels below ~350 whp, but problematic above that, IMO.

Shimming it would allow more pressure in the engine before cooling any oil. This is good for oil pressure in the system, but potentially bad for oil cooling.

What are your power goals?

Would a $500-700 oil cooling upgrade break the budget for the build?
 

simond355

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#3
I would ditch the pressure-based cooling system entirely before shimming it. It's a great, reliable system for power levels below ~350 whp, but problematic above that, IMO.

Shimming it would allow more pressure in the engine before cooling any oil. This is good for oil pressure in the system, but potentially bad for oil cooling.

What are your power goals?

Would a $500-700 oil cooling upgrade break the budget for the build?
Build is, but not fitted yet:
550 RC Injectors
Lexus AFM
DM Downpipe full 3 inch with elbow
CT26 Trim57
Fuel pressure regulator
Walbro 255
Apexi Neo Safc
Wideband
Planning on 1 bar of boost.



No i wouldnt, i just dont know what to buy lol, can you help me out?
 

hvyman

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#4
You can get a earls oil thermostat sand which plate. And then just run 2 lines to a oil cooler. Not sure if it will fit on 7m tjo. If the filter won’t fit you can get filter adapters and relocate if.

Or get filter adapter for block and separate on for filter and then run lines to a thermostat and cooler.

There’s a huge thread on oil filter relocation.
 

suprarx7nut

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#5
Build is, but not fitted yet:
550 RC Injectors
Lexus AFM
DM Downpipe full 3 inch with elbow
CT26 Trim57
Fuel pressure regulator
Walbro 255
Apexi Neo Safc
Wideband
Planning on 1 bar of boost.



No i wouldnt, i just dont know what to buy lol, can you help me out?
For that build I'd consider keeping it as is. From a performance standpoint for racing or high horsepower, the stock system is pretty terrible. For a highway puller or reasonably normal driver, the stock system is fine, IMO. I ran the stock system for years, driving it hard over ~30k miles at 10-12psi on a 50 trim CT. The engine was perfectly fine after all those miles. Your 57 trim CT26 will be capable of a little more, but not much. You're not going to kill the motor because your oil pressure was just a tad low due to the oil system and you're very unlikely to overcook a good synthetic oil.

If you're into the upgraded oil circuit then spend some time searching and learning. Driftmotion offers a kit, but you should still understand it perfectly before installing it. Install it wrong and you could kill the motor in seconds before you have time to shut it down. It's money well spent in the name of reliability, but not entirely necessary for most people, IMO.

Again, I've got controversial oil system views around here so take it with a grain of salt. :)
 

simond355

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#6
For that build I'd consider keeping it as is. From a performance standpoint for racing or high horsepower, the stock system is pretty terrible. For a highway puller or reasonably normal driver, the stock system is fine, IMO. I ran the stock system for years, driving it hard over ~30k miles at 10-12psi on a 50 trim CT. The engine was perfectly fine after all those miles. Your 57 trim CT26 will be capable of a little more, but not much. You're not going to kill the motor because your oil pressure was just a tad low due to the oil system and you're very unlikely to overcook a good synthetic oil.

If you're into the upgraded oil circuit then spend some time searching and learning. Driftmotion offers a kit, but you should still understand it perfectly before installing it. Install it wrong and you could kill the motor in seconds before you have time to shut it down. It's money well spent in the name of reliability, but not entirely necessary for most people, IMO.

Again, I've got controversial oil system views around here so take it with a grain of salt. :)
Do you happen to maybe got a link to where i can read about it??
I want to make the thing bullet proof, and oiling system is not where i wanna be a cheap ass! :icon_bigg
 

suprarx7nut

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#7

Piratetip

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#8
I had the "full flow " oil cooler route for some time. After weighing the pros and cons of that system I decided to totally ditch it. I now run a modified stock system w/ an entirely custom oil cooler setup, which is on it's own loop and separate pump.

After a deep study of the stock system and it's components I kept the best and ditched the rest.
Primarily completely disabling the stock oil cooler and replacing with one of my own design.
 

simond355

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#10
I had the "full flow " oil cooler route for some time. After weighing the pros and cons of that system I decided to totally ditch it. I now run a modified stock system w/ an entirely custom oil cooler setup, which is on it's own loop and separate pump.

After a deep study of the stock system and it's components I kept the best and ditched the rest.
Primarily completely disabling the stock oil cooler and replacing with one of my own design.
Explain me the pros and cons please, and what did you do and why?
 

Piratetip

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#11
I'll try to summarize quickly.

Stock oil filter housing/cooler
Pro - good packaging / compact
- low component count / potential external failure points.
- shortest oil path to feed the engine (lowest pumping losses)
- no expandable components ( soft lines)

Con - pressure based cooler bleeds off a small portion of the oil feed to the engine.
- small(er) orifices at critical junctions / connections / banjo bolts

Full Flow System
Pro - fully integrated oil filter / cooler and thermostat in one
- all flow from the oil pump feeds the engine ( none bled off to be cooled and drained back to the pan)

Con - large number of external connections and components. If any one of these fails your engine looses pressure and boom metal glitter in your pan
- 5 ft + of external soft lines (SSN or Teflon shrouded ect..) the oil pump must push through before going back to the engine
- higher pumping losses
- increased weight and component count

There are probably other points I am forgetting ATM.

So I kept the stock system and corrected the cons list as well as totally eliminated the pressure bleed off oil cooler system.
I still utilize the gte oil filter housing however. ( Modified)

Then added a secondary small oil pump to feed the oil cooler. This is fed directly from the pan using some extra fittings I installed as well as an aftermarket temp sensor.
 

simond355

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Piratetip

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#14
And another question, should i be worried about rear and main seals etc assumed oil pressure will go far up compared to what it is now?
No, seals should be unaffected by oil pressure.

If you are having seals blow out its usually due to a lack of a properly working PCV system.
Best to keep the crankcase under a slight vacuum.

The full flow oil cooler thread covers how to route the oil lines.
Here is a simple diagram showing the connections.
diagramoilroute.gif
 

suprarx7nut

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#15
Pirate, awesome idea with the secondary pump. Is that pump small enough to fit into an unmodified pan? Or is it externally mounted with a suction line in the sump?
 

Piratetip

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Yeah external mounted, just 3 extra fittings on the pan.
1 feed, 1 return and 1 for the temp sensor.
 

3p141592654

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#19
Con - large number of external connections and components. If any one of these fails your engine looses pressure and boom metal glitter in your pan
- 5 ft + of external soft lines (SSN or Teflon shrouded ect..) the oil pump must push through before going back to the engine
- higher pumping losses
- increased weight and component count
What kind of pressure loss is seen with a thermostatically controlled external full-flow setup? I have no feel for whether its a few psi or more.

I have always liked the more modern coolant-based oil coolers such as on the JZ engines or pretty much anything else these days. Seems it has the advantage of warming the oil when cold without requiring a thermostat which will eventually fail.
 

Piratetip

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#20
Pi it would be tough to accurately answer that question.

I do not know the actual gallons per minute the 7M engine oil pumps through the system.

Someone could set up a test stand and spin the pump under pressure to measure the flow output.
But the chances of someone actually doing that are slim to none.

To get a rough estimate:
Here is a nice chart showing pressure drop values per 10 feet of line.
Most people use dash -8 or 1/2" ID lines, so use that column.
Pressure drop values listed here are calculated at 100°F temperature for petroleum based oil.
This chart only accounts for the line itself, not any fittings in the system.
http://pressureconnections.com/customer/prcoco/customerpages/literature/Hose_Pressure_Drop_Chart.pdf

My best guess for flow rates on this engine would be:
5 GPM @ 3,000 RPM
10 GPM @ 6,000 RPM
 

suprarx7nut

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#21
What kind of pressure loss is seen with a thermostatically controlled external full-flow setup? I have no feel for whether its a few psi or more.

I have always liked the more modern coolant-based oil coolers such as on the JZ engines or pretty much anything else these days. Seems it has the advantage of warming the oil when cold without requiring a thermostat which will eventually fail.
Pi it would be tough to accurately answer that question.

I do not know the actual gallons per minute the 7M engine oil pumps through the system.

Someone could set up a test stand and spin the pump under pressure to measure the flow output.
But the chances of someone actually doing that are slim to none.

To get a rough estimate:
Here is a nice chart showing pressure drop values per 10 feet of line.
Most people use dash -8 or 1/2" ID lines, so use that column.
Pressure drop values listed here are calculated at 100°F temperature for petroleum based oil.
This chart only accounts for the line itself, not any fittings in the system.
http://pressureconnections.com/customer/prcoco/customerpages/literature/Hose_Pressure_Drop_Chart.pdf

My best guess for flow rates on this engine would be:
5 GPM @ 3,000 RPM
10 GPM @ 6,000 RPM
I helped CRE install a full flow system years back. I didn't write down the pressure loss, but it was minimal according to the admittedly terrible factory gauge. We/he noted it before the full flow circuit and then after. Same motor, no other changes other than the new cooler circuit and the addition of a CT-26.

I expected it to be significant and it was barely noticeable as I recall. Of course, that could change drastically pending what lines, cooler and hose lengths are used.
 

Piratetip

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#22
Yeah the gauge is basically useless.
You would need to install a pressure transducer and log the output with a data logger.
 

tissimo

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#23
Pi it would be tough to accurately answer that question.

I do not know the actual gallons per minute the 7M engine oil pumps through the system.

Someone could set up a test stand and spin the pump under pressure to measure the flow output.
But the chances of someone actually doing that are slim to none.

To get a rough estimate:
Here is a nice chart showing pressure drop values per 10 feet of line.
Most people use dash -8 or 1/2" ID lines, so use that column.
Pressure drop values listed here are calculated at 100°F temperature for petroleum based oil.
This chart only accounts for the line itself, not any fittings in the system.
http://pressureconnections.com/customer/prcoco/customerpages/literature/Hose_Pressure_Drop_Chart.pdf

My best guess for flow rates on this engine would be:
5 GPM @ 3,000 RPM
10 GPM @ 6,000 RPM
The only real issue with pressure loss through the lines would be at idle, but flow would be small so the effect is very minimal. At speed the stock system would be a lot more detrimental to the pressure than the few extra feet of lines. Combine the full flow system with an upgraded Pressure feed off the oil pump (removing the terribly restrictive banjo bolt) would negate any loss of the lines.
 

Piratetip

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#24
The only real issue with pressure loss through the lines would be at idle, but flow would be small so the effect is very minimal. At speed the stock system would be a lot more detrimental to the pressure than the few extra feet of lines. Combine the full flow system with an upgraded Pressure feed off the oil pump (removing the terribly restrictive banjo bolt) would negate any loss of the lines.
Why would you only associate a pressure drop at a lower flow idle condition?
Trying to understand your thinking behind this.

I have also mitigated potential losses in all the banjo bolts in the stock system as well, FYI.
They are no longer stock, per say.
All the orifices have been enlarged.

Without actual pressure readings at the pump vs at the engine its all speculation anyway.
Someone would have to take pressure and flow measurements on a stock vs modified oiling system.

Pressure loss across a length of hose is a real measurable effect, not an idea pulled out of thin air.
In the same way you can measure the voltage drop across a section of wire under load.
 

suprarx7nut

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#26
Why would you only associate a pressure drop at a lower flow idle condition?
Trying to understand your thinking behind this.

I have also mitigated potential losses in all the banjo bolts in the stock system as well, FYI.
They are no longer stock, per say.
All the orifices have been enlarged.

Without actual pressure readings at the pump vs at the engine its all speculation anyway.
Someone would have to take pressure and flow measurements on a stock vs modified oiling system.

Pressure loss across a length of hose is a real measurable effect, not an idea pulled out of thin air.
In the same way you can measure the voltage drop across a section of wire under load.
I'm with you.

I also don't see why the factory system would be restrictive. Does the OEM filter bracket restrict flow at typical flow rates for a 7M? I didn't think it did.
 

3p141592654

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#27
I think the focus on idle was due to the low stock pressure at idle, which would make even small extra pressure drops significant. At 3000 rpm where you have 30+ psi a 2psi drop is no big deal. That said, at idle the flow rate is much less, so the drop should scale accordingly.
 

simond355

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#28
s-l225.jpg


Please someone who actually done this, im a bit confused over this picture.
Do you have to like ''cross'' line it like i did in editor? if so, why is there two plugs on same side?? Arrows are messed up?
 

tissimo

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#29
Why would you only associate a pressure drop at a lower flow idle condition?
Trying to understand your thinking behind this.

I have also mitigated potential losses in all the banjo bolts in the stock system as well, FYI.
They are no longer stock, per say.
All the orifices have been enlarged.

Without actual pressure readings at the pump vs at the engine its all speculation anyway.
Someone would have to take pressure and flow measurements on a stock vs modified oiling system.

Pressure loss across a length of hose is a real measurable effect, not an idea pulled out of thin air.
In the same way you can measure the voltage drop across a section of wire under load.
I think the focus on idle was due to the low stock pressure at idle, which would make even small extra pressure drops significant. At 3000 rpm where you have 30+ psi a 2psi drop is no big deal. That said, at idle the flow rate is much less, so the drop should scale accordingly.
Yeah, exactly as Pi said. I'm basically saying its a non-issue, especially when talking versus the stock bleeder style cooler which has a far greater loss of pressure than a few feet of line.
 

Piratetip

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Yeah, exactly as Pi said. I'm basically saying its a non-issue, especially when talking versus the stock bleeder style cooler which has a far greater loss of pressure than a few feet of line.
True, though I am not comparing those two.
I am comparing a full flow external style cooler to my modified stock oil filter housing w/ custom separate oil cooler loop.
 

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tissimo

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#32
I'll try to summarize quickly.

Stock oil filter housing/cooler
Pro - good packaging / compact
- low component count / potential external failure points.
- shortest oil path to feed the engine (lowest pumping losses)
- no expandable components ( soft lines)

Con - pressure based cooler bleeds off a small portion of the oil feed to the engine.
- small(er) orifices at critical junctions / connections / banjo bolts

Full Flow System
Pro - fully integrated oil filter / cooler and thermostat in one
- all flow from the oil pump feeds the engine ( none bled off to be cooled and drained back to the pan)

Con - large number of external connections and components. If any one of these fails your engine looses pressure and boom metal glitter in your pan
- 5 ft + of external soft lines (SSN or Teflon shrouded ect..) the oil pump must push through before going back to the engine
- higher pumping losses
- increased weight and component count

There are probably other points I am forgetting ATM.

So I kept the stock system and corrected the cons list as well as totally eliminated the pressure bleed off oil cooler system.
I still utilize the gte oil filter housing however. ( Modified)

Then added a secondary small oil pump to feed the oil cooler. This is fed directly from the pan using some extra fittings I installed as well as an aftermarket temp sensor.
True, though I am not comparing those two.
I am comparing a full flow external style cooler to my modified stock oil filter housing w/ custom separate oil cooler loop.
Looks like you were to me.
 

Enraged

A HG job took HOW long??
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#33
One of the things I've found frustrating is the number of connections required when remote mounting the filter and adding a thermostat.

Luckily there are a few options, Improved Racing http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-c...n-oil-filter-mount-with-thermostat-p-781.html and Greddy https://frsport.com/GReddy-12401114-Remote-Oil-Filter-Relocation-with-Thermostat_p_12814.html

Both have a remote filter mount with a built in thermostat. When you add up the price of a filter mount, a separate thermostat, all the fittings, plus the frustration/labor required, one of these is actually a decent deal.
 

suprarx7nut

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#34
One of the things I've found frustrating is the number of connections required when remote mounting the filter and adding a thermostat.

Luckily there are a few options, Improved Racing http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-c...n-oil-filter-mount-with-thermostat-p-781.html and Greddy https://frsport.com/GReddy-12401114-Remote-Oil-Filter-Relocation-with-Thermostat_p_12814.html

Both have a remote filter mount with a built in thermostat. When you add up the price of a filter mount, a separate thermostat, all the fittings, plus the frustration/labor required, one of these is actually a decent deal.
That's pretty neat, thanks for the links. Reducing the number of fittings in that circuit is well worth a premium in my mind. Now I just wish there was an option to combine the block adapter into that assembly as well so you have zero flow through any connections or lines when cold. That'd drop you down to one set of lines to the cooler and that's it. Not sure such a thing exists, but it'd be nice!
 

Enraged

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#35
You would need to run a sandwich plate style thermostat, and then a remote filter mount, so no, not really reducing anything.
 

suprarx7nut

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#36
You would need to run a sandwich plate style thermostat, and then a remote filter mount, so no, not really reducing anything.
I'm saying I'd like to have an assembly that functions as a sandwhich plate adapter with a built in thermostat and filter mount - all in one "block".

I agree with the remote filter mount you wouldn't eliminate anything.
 

Piratetip

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#37
Looks like you were to me.
Sequence of posts in the thread:

Post #8
I describe the modified stock system I designed and built.

I had the "full flow " oil cooler route for some time. After weighing the pros and cons of that system I decided to totally ditch it. I now run a modified stock system w/ an entirely custom oil cooler setup, which is on it's own loop and separate pump.

After a deep study of the stock system and it's components I kept the best and ditched the rest.
Primarily completely disabling the stock oil cooler and replacing with one of my own design.
Post #10
simond355 asks for more information.

Explain me the pros and cons please, and what did you do and why?
Post #11
I give a quick overview of the pros / cons of the stock system vs full flow.
I then describe the steps I have taken to correct for some of the cons / flaws in the stock system.
It makes little sense to describe what I have modified without knowing why it was an issue in the first place.

I'll try to summarize quickly.

Stock oil filter housing/cooler
Pro - good packaging / compact
- low component count / potential external failure points.
- shortest oil path to feed the engine (lowest pumping losses)
- no expandable components ( soft lines)

Con - pressure based cooler bleeds off a small portion of the oil feed to the engine.
- small(er) orifices at critical junctions / connections / banjo bolts

Full Flow System
Pro - fully integrated oil filter / cooler and thermostat in one
- all flow from the oil pump feeds the engine ( none bled off to be cooled and drained back to the pan)

Con - large number of external connections and components. If any one of these fails your engine looses pressure and boom metal glitter in your pan
- 5 ft + of external soft lines (SSN or Teflon shrouded ect..) the oil pump must push through before going back to the engine
- higher pumping losses
- increased weight and component count

There are probably other points I am forgetting ATM.

So I kept the stock system and corrected the cons list as well as totally eliminated the pressure bleed off oil cooler system.
I still utilize the gte oil filter housing however. ( Modified)

Then added a secondary small oil pump to feed the oil cooler. This is fed directly from the pan using some extra fittings I installed as well as an aftermarket temp sensor.
Post #16
I give more details on the modifications.

Yeah external mounted, just 3 extra fittings on the pan.
1 feed, 1 return and 1 for the temp sensor.
So what would be the thought process behind telling me I am only comparing the stock bleeder style to the full flow system?

versus the stock bleeder style cooler which has a far greater loss of pressure than a few feet of line.
True, though I am not comparing those two.
I am comparing a full flow external style cooler to my modified stock oil filter housing w/ custom separate oil cooler loop.
Looks like you were to me.
 

tissimo

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#39
So what would be the thought process behind telling me I am only comparing the stock bleeder style to the full flow system?
Your Pro-cons list for full flow vs stock system then expanding on the loss of pressure through the lines. I commented my thoughts on it. I couldn't care less about your specific setup, just commenting regarding the stock vs full flow. If you want input on your setup I can add that if you wish.
 

Piratetip

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#40
If you want input on your setup I can add that if you wish.
Sure why not, everyone has their own viewpoints.
I will gladly like to hear everyone's custom setup with the data to back it up.
As an engineer I cannot rely on anecdotal evidence, there needs to be measured or modeled data provided as proof.

Though I am not entirely sure why you would want to?
You just said you could care less about my setup then in the next sentence offered to weigh in your input.

Just do us all a favor and leave the resentment off the table.
My ultimate goal is creating the best designed systems and sub systems with a heavy emphasis on long term longevity, reliability and robustness.
If anyone has better ideas than mine I am more than happy to hear them.